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Austrianism is Dying! Truthers Unite!

August 3, 2013
Austrian Economics down

It transpires that leading Libertarian websites have been catastrophically hemorrhaging visitors over the last 18 months. Gold buggery is definitely on the wane and this means that the classical enemy of Populist Monetary Reform may be on the way out. The Goldites have been confusing the Populists for 150 years.
This is the chance of an era to find common ground for a widely supported Monetary Reform Movement.

By Anthony Migchels for Henry Makow and Real Currencies

Here are two stunning Alexa graphs. losing visitors losing visitors losing visitors losing visitors

Gary North is also down from about 30,000 to 60,000.
Surely Lew Rockwell’s site and  are at the heart of Libertarian agitation. They showed solid growth up to late 2011 when they started bleeding visitors. It must be remembered that this was during the Paul campaign, that could have seen the Goldites take over the Republican party, should Paul have resisted Diebold manipulation.

Such a disastrous turn of events has profound implications. Quite clearly the Powers that Be had plans for Libertarianism. As we have been discussing at length, the whole thing was built up over decades and co-opted the Truth Movement in the 2008 and 2012 elections.

Over the last year we have seen clear indications that Libertarianism was mainstreaming. But this is not really important. People still stuck in the Republican-Democrat dichotomy will believe anything, what matters is that Austrian Economics within the Truth Movement has more or less ended as a force. The Truth Movement is the real opposition and the bankers are losing the battle for their mind, also in terms of economics.

Confirmation of this is a recent bizarre rant by North. In a confused diatribe, using the word ‘crackpot’ at least 20 times, he first blathers on endlessly about Keynes being an anti-semite sodomite crackpot (doesn’t Gary know John Keynes was into young boys too?) and then completely loses it in describing American Populism. Said he: “It is, lo and behold, the Rothschilds. In other words, it’s them Jews. It’s them Jews again. It’s always them Jews. Them Jews is everywhere. Them Jews is everything bad. Them Jews is rich. Them Jews. Them Jews. Them Jews. Get them Jews!”

It’s hard to think of a more pathetic example of auto-combustion.

Few still believe that Gold will stop the bankers. Gold is deflationary, which would worsen an already grim scenario and does nothing to end Usury. America itself is in the absolute worst of positions to go Gold because nobody has any, the Federal Reserve least of all.

Rand Paul recently suggested a Gold commission, but without his father he is useless in the Truth Movement. The only one really plugging him is Alex Jones, who was also instrumental in giving Ron ‘Arabs did 9/11’ Paul the platform he needed. But just about everybody has been distancing himself from Jones, especially the last few months saw a flurry of people calling him out for many different reasons. Jones is regularly being slaughtered by his own feedbackers.

The other day hard-core Zionist Rand Paul was calling for war in Syria. Claiming Obama only wanted to fight Assad to a stalemate our man brazenly came forward: ‘I’ve told them I’m not sending my kids or your kids or any American soldiers to fight for stalemate. When we fight, we fight to win, we fight for American principles, we fight for the American flag and we come home after we win.’

What does it all mean?
Austrianism was and always has been the Money Power’s tool to subvert American Populism all throughout the 20th century right up to today. Ed Griffin’s ‘the Creature of Jekyll Island’ is just the perfect example of how they steamroll any platform for monetary reform by confusing the uninitiated. With the decline of Gold buggery we see a vacuum right at the heart of the Truth Movement.

The international implications of this trend are hard to fathom. As we know Austrianism fits well with the rise of the Gold backed Yuan. The Euro also was designed to be backed by Gold. Ron Paul never intended to win the elections and Lew Rockwell, right after Paul’s legendary backstabbing, claimed he was only there to educate the masses on the wonders of Austrian Economics. So it’s not too clear tPtB want a Gold Standard for America, or perhaps he was just too early.

The Truth Movement is the natural heir of the great American Populists who fought for plentiful money ever since the Civil War. But what is the Truth Movement? The great thing is: nobody knows. It’s one big mess and everybody associated with it has his or her own particular perspective. But there does seem to be a certain loose consensus. 9/11 Truth of course. The idea that the world is run by some bankers (Rothschild & Co), that they are trying to establish World Government and that they use wars to create the chaos they need to get there. It despises Zionism and Imperialism. It is more spiritual than religious.

Bankers have bought the entire world by offering bookkeeping services and slapping usury on those with debit accounts. This is called banking and it’s the mother of all hoaxes. It’s the kernel of the New World Order. They brought all Nations and all Governments to their knees and chained us all to interest-slavery with the only commodity that mankind can create in infinite amounts with the stroke of a pen.

If the results would not have been so utterly excruciating for untold billions of people, it would have been funny.

The answer is clear: we desperately need monetary reform. With the Gold meme in decline, more serious proposals are finding a platform. And there are many. There is the American Monetary Institute run by Zarlenga. They managed to get Kucinich on board, who launched HR2990 in Congress. Shortly thereafter he lost his seat, but this was quite a feat nonetheless.

There are the Hamiltonians/Larouchians, for instance the United Front Against Austerity. Ellen Brown’s Public Banking is also heavily influenced by Hamiltonian thinking.

These proposals certainly are very American and would go a long way. They would end the depression and interest payments by the State.

But they do not solve interest-slavery for the common man. He would still have to go to a bank to pay $300k interest on a $200k mortgage. These proposals (with the exception of Public Banking, which can be easily done on City level) also tend to centralize power in Washington and personally I’d like to see more decentralization to the States and local communities.

There are also the interest-free crediters. Mathematically Perfected Economy is one example. Hour money another. Thomas Greco is big on Mutual Credit clearing. These proposals are very strong because of their principled stance against Usury, which is absolutely key.

There are also the Europeans, people like Margrit Kennedy and Bernard Lietaer, who are strongly anti-usury, anti hoarding (of money) and promote regional/complementary currencies.

There are also the proposals that I would loosely categorize as the ‘Chicago Plan’. The AMI is quite close to it. Bill Still has been offering solutions in that direction. Positive Money comes to mind. A weakness of these proposals is full-reserve banking.

And let’s not forget Social Credit, which remains a force.

With Austrianism facing decimation, a united Monetary Reform platform seems more possible than ever.

Sound money is
1. Interest-Free
2. Stable, no boom/bust cycle, which is a result of tampering with the volume of money
3. Decentralized in the sense that local communities and economies have access to cheap credit

The current proposals as discussed show great promise but the finishing touch is lacking. We need a wide scale debate. This will enhance both the proposals and the public interest and understanding.

Banking is One and those that own it are the Money Power. As Michael Hoffman put it: ‘if there is a greater evil than the Money Power, than the Bible is lying……To say that the Money Power is at the very top of the evils that we need to work against basically overwhelms people. They want something else to fight…….Freedom from interest on money, is essentially the battle for freedom from the Money Power……We reject the weaponization of the love of money as it is represented by interest on loans of money!!’

This is, and remains, the challenge for both the Truth Movement and the Human Race.

(Thanks to Faux Capitalist for pointing out the Libertarian Alexa ratings)

Babylon = Usury! We want Interest-Free Money!
The Ron and Rand Paul Betrayal
How the Money Power created Libertarianism and Austrian Economics
End the Fed: a Trojan Horse destroying the Truth Movement from within
Why Tom Woods is wrong about the Greenbackers
Greenbackers vs. Goldbugs, by Eric Blair (Activist Post)
The Daily Bell calls it quits…
Meet the Real Deal: Michael Hoffman on ‘Usury in Christendom’
Forget about Full Reserve Banking

  1. libertarianism is yearning for the certainty of life before toilet training. Good Luck

  2. I think that maybe you are overestimating Rockwell and North’s importance. Though they both give interviews, neither has their own radio shows or video broadcasts. Their regular following consists of wonks and academics (so-called). The rise and subsequent decline in their sites numbers reflect interest generated by the elections.

    It’s people like Tom Woods, Peter Schiff and Karl Denninger (to name but a few) that keep libertarian and Austrian conversation going for the masses. If their numbers went down, then maybe I’d be as exuberant as you are. Until then, I’ll just remain hopeful.

    Nonetheless, there are things to be happy about. Ron Paul and Mitt Romney didn’t become president. A public bank is opening up in San Francisco And Syria appears to be defeating the terrorist death squads.

    btw, United Front Against Austerity is not affiliated with La Rousch. As Tarpley says, they’re too busy with process reforms to ever engage in any real activism on behalf of the poor and working classes — which is what UFAA is all about.

    • Well, Rockwell’s sites ( too) is much, much bigger than Woods’s and Woods works for Rockwell!

      The big question here is what the relation between Gold prices and this trend is. Once COMEX goes down they’ll have a second lease of life, no doubt.

  3. Yeah the metals ETF’s are getting slaughtered .In the meantime sales of pohysical gold/silver are

  4. Bourchakoun permalink

    Well – Alex Jones looks more and more like an agent – agree on that.

    He could have supported Bill Still as a Libertarian Candidate in the last election cycle, he stuck with Ron Paul instead to the bitter end and then switched to Gary Johnson. Well – I guess he is plugging Rand Paul again now.

    Either way – even if he is just too stubborn for his own good – the movement seems to change.

    On the other hand Australia and UK are already implementing new Internet regulations under the guise of porn-control. We’ll see who wins that race – will they attain total internet control before suffient enlightenment of the poeple?

  5. Anthony,
    I agree with you 100% that there must be a wide scale debate. All that I would add here is that the scale of the debate, because monetary policy effects the entire human race, must be WORLD wide. In this moment I perceive that the catalyst to absolutely energize a worldwide debate on monetary reform is the story of former World Bank attorney and whistleblower Karen Hudes. In my view her witness testimony, what she has seen and knows, may be the most important story on Earth. To be perfectly clear, Karen Hudes’ story has more consequences for humanity than any other.
    Thank you,

    • Anyone who gives a shit about debating these issues is here on this blog. This is it buddy. It’s not that hard to find. Is Karen Hudes exposing that banks don’t loan anything?

      • Philo,
        Nice to meet you. The reason that I mention Karen Hudes is because she has discovered massive corruption at the World Bank, where she worked for 20 some years. The World Bank is the top of the pyramid. I have listened to interviews and she seems rational, intelligent and concerned. Her July 13 two hour interview with Kerry Cassidy, whatever your view of her as an interviewer, was extremely informative. My point in recommending people hear her story is that when enough people become aware, then the worldwide discussion of financial systems, including fractional reserve banking, as well as all the issues and viewpoints discussed here, will begin sooner than if her story is not widely known. Just trying to help my brother.
        Thank you,

  6. moneylender permalink

    One must realise the the whole system is based on fraud based on
    of exponential growth in debt and compound interest. Interest is transferring money from the poor to the rich, thus ENSLAVING us all from cradle to grave.
    This is done by design from 1694.
    A paper back published in the 70s ”None dare call it conspiracy” by Garry Allen is a starter for most of you.
    When it was published they never thought it would sell so only 10 copies were brought out.It was old out with a week, a second batch of 1000 was also sold out within a week, a third batch of 10,000, also with in a week, forth batch of a million with an year, so it went on to win the price for the most popular paper back.
    ”Grip of Debt’ by Michael Robotom was another good one published in the eighties.
    Ellen Browns ”Web of Debt” is the next best.
    In order to keep the debt based Ponzi scheme going, they have been raping the Third World where U$2trillion per year is transferred in the Western Banks.
    ”Confessions of an Economic Hitman” John Perkins is an eye opener with respect to Third World Debt.
    The powers that be have dug a too big hole either by design or stealth.
    The Derivative obligations is U$1.5Quadrillion.
    The Global GDP is U$60 to 70 Trillions.
    They will pauperise every before they establish the NWO,but have come stuck, will they start WW111.?

    • The NWO was established with the invention of banking.

      • moneylender permalink

        There is more to NWO as follows
        The Illuminati Depopulation Agenda
        Posted: 31 Jul 2013 11:35 PM PDT
        While the global elite construct underground bunkers, eat organic and hoard seeds in Arctic vaults; the global poor are being slowly starved thanks to high commodity prices and poisoned with genetically modified (GMO) food. Austerity measures aimed largely at the poor are being imposed on all the nations of the world. Weather events grow more deadly and
        brushfire wars more frequent. An AK-47 can be obtained for $49 in the markets of West Africa. The depopulation campaign of the inbred Illuminati bankers is accelerating

        • Who is voluntarily believing a bank is lending? Who is voluntarily part of a population control industry fueled by greed?

          • moneylender permalink

            ”Who is voluntarily believing a bank is lending? Who is voluntarily part of a population control industry fueled by greed?”
            We all are brainwashed

          • this got spammed moneylender, hence the delay!

  7. “…To say that the Money Power is at the very top of the evils that we need to work against basically overwhelms people. They want something else to fight…Freedom from interest on money, is essentially the battle for freedom from the Money Power…” — Michael Hoffman

    A fundamental understanding on why interest on money simply cannot be sustained in a finite world is needed. Fortunately, we have mathematics to unequivocally prove that interest on money is a pyramid scheme that invariably and inescapably leads to the destruction of any society.

    Once interest poisons an economy, it will compound through many means including multiple transactions (e.g. raw material supplier pays 5% credit line, manufacturer pays 5% in buying raw materials through debt, wholesaler pays 5% credit line to buy inventory and consumer pays 5% in credit card used to purchase the goods).

    The formula for calculating compounding interest:


    D = Debt at the end of year
    P = Principal borrowed
    r = annual rate of interest
    n = year in question

    Note that the “n” (superscript) is referred to as the “exponent” in math. This is why the debt grows “exponentially”.

    We can observe the exponential growth of debt taking place today through a chart that was prepared by Chris Martenson in an article entitled “Death by Debt”see Chart here

    “…if we perform an exponential curve fit (blue line) and round up, we find a nearly perfect fit with a R2 of 0.99. This means that debt has been growing in a nearly perfect exponential fashion through the 1970’s, the 1980’s, the 1990’s and the 2000’s. In order for the 2010 decade to mirror, match, or in any way resemble the prior four decades, credit market debt will need to double again, from $52 trillion to $104 trillion… This explains everything.”

    We can also observe the financial collapse of other societies through history that resulted from the cancerous growth of debt. For example France’s debt grew from less than a billion Francs in 1790 to over 80 billion by 1797 – shortly thereafter followed by a Revolution.

    Apologists for usury often claim that exploding debt is from “fiat currency” – surely, if the money were backed by gold, this would not happen! This argument doesn’t hold water when one considers that many gold backed economies defaulted (overcome by debt) in bankruptcy while under a gold standard (the US for example and most of Europe left the gold standard in the beginning of the 20th century not because they wanted to, but because they were effectively bankrupt).

    The type of money used doesn’t matter in usury, all will fail (copper, gold, sea shells, raccoon pelts, paper notes) under the insatiable growth of debt.

    Other apologists contend that if only the state could be the banker, surely this would solve everything. Again, it doesn’t matter who owns the bank, usury is fatal. Some would contend that the state could simply return the interest to the folks – all of it! But, why collect it if the true intent is to return it equitably, amongst the borrowers who need it most?

    And there are those who claim that a return must be provided in order for investments to be made. This is true when one buys stocks but not in the creation of new debt money. Debt money doesn’t come from investors, it is simply typed into a bank account – for free. Banks can profitably qualify borrowers for loans through application and processing fees – interest is NOT required. Commercial banks are doing this today with mortgages that they sell but do not hold.

    Finally, there are those who say that the interest may be repaid as long as the loans are structured properly. You could, after all, repay 11 tokens when only 10 exist if the bank were to give you one back to use twice. Of course, loans are not structured this way – it is a strawman argument.

    Hopefully the people can figure out that humanity is enslaved by interest bearing debt that will eventually destroy our society.

    • The banker doesn’t “give” away tokens. He purchases something from you as a borrower with a token so you can give the token back to him. That’s how he gets all his stuff.

      • Why would anyone vote this comment down and not refute it? Pathetic. Or maybe they just don’t like the fact that’s what bankers do.

    • What’s unsustainable is all of the securities of the world are being gobbled up by fewer people. That means the ratio of producers is growing less to those who are consuming and producing nothing.

    • That includes everyone from your elderly retired neighbor to the guy on a 900′ yacht. The game is monopoly.

    • Brilliant explanation. Compound interest is like a ubiquitous value added tax on steroids, only worse. It’s not the various forms usury can take, but usury itself that is the problem.

    • I couldn’t agree more Larry and here we’re not even talking about the cost of it all to the many……..

  8. The problem with gold is not that it’s deflationary. It’s that it’s a substance that doesn’t do anything. You can loan it to someone, but still, it will do nothing. Debt is what makes the world go ’round. The banker’s role is to facilitate that debt by creating the illusion he’s lending when in fact it is the accumulator of credits that is lending. When you earn a dollar, you can rest assured that a borrower will be pricing his ware in terms of a dollar because you are his lender. BANKS DON’T LEND ANYTHING(for the uninitiated).

    • Intrinsically, Gold is just as you state. However, when it is use as a reserve for currency, it is ascribed an artificial market value and can be deflationary due to it scarcity. A few elite individuals/groups can horde a the world’s supply and drive market price up which in turn makes debts paid in gold backed currency artificially high by an exponential magnitude.

      • There you used the word “intrinsically”. “Intrinsic” is a one word oxymoron. Just like “gold reserve currency” is an oxymoron. Gold is just a way of convincing people you have money, so you should be the one who’s facilitating the debt people are trading in their commerce. A banker can only convince a person that they’re loaning them something if the person thinks the banker has money. There has never even been a gold reserve currency and there never will be. Money is debt, always has been. Bankers don’t loan anything and never have.

  9. Why would anyone be a gold-bug? Is North a banker agent? Does he know banks don’t lend anything? Is he sincerely seeking a solution to something that can’t be solved? Are his popularity stats just a cyclical thing? Are they a sign of civilization collapsing?

  10. Dugan King permalink

    Congratulations on another great article Anthony! Interesting how mentioning the name Rothschild brings out the allegations of anti-semitism when nothing anti-semitic has been said. I wonder how much the Rothschild Syndicate pays these fools to do that. Your research seems to be spot on. I am working on the logistics for a parallel currency for my home state of Arkansas. The “ArBuck” will be issued as a multi-merchant gift card. It will convert into Dollars at a proposed 10 to 9 rate with the discount going to the Arkansas consumer. I have a hunch that the Syndicate plans to destroy the Dollar and every currency tied to the dollar in Atlas Shrugged fashion. They will then very likely come forward as the Saviours of mankind, wearing their Austrian hats to offer us their New World currency backed by gold. In designing the ArBuck I see where charging interest on loans could be used effectively and occasionally to reign in any inflation tendencies. This would serve to contract the volume of credit in circulation for ethical purposes. Inflation is a tax that should go to public benefit rather than to the bankers profit. It taxes everyone equally and requires no bureaucracy to collect. When you get a chance, check out the articles I posted in Facebook under “The ArBuck.” Kindest regards.

    • Are you going to have your own ArBuck bank with its own network of electronic transfer machines?

  11. The depression has been and will always be. It just moves around. It’s always in the slums of Calcutta and Buenos Aries. Many are living a higher standard of living than ever, but fewer than most.

  12. Anthony,
    Your realcurrencies website has been a wonderful resource and your articles have helped in enlightening many people.
    The American Monetary Institute run by Zarlenga and
    Ellen Brown’s Public Banking are also right on the truth.
    You have almost single handed exposed and defeated the money monger funded Austrian Economics false Hegelian dialectic.
    More importantly you have explained the whole money problem in simple easy language. The money problem afflicting humanity is damn easy to understand. It becomes confusing to understand because of deliberate obfuscation and creation of false Hegelian dialectic like Austrian economics to control and mislead the people. The universities and textbooks are also controlled and highly misleading. The conspiracy against mankind is mind boggling compounded by the fact that most people have no interest in this matter and want to just go on with their simple lives. Make no mistake the money control by a few is the greatest evil in this world. It truly is the Satan’s grip on mankind leading to all other evils.
    The money mongers have become exceedingly wealthy. But the good news is the world is run by its own laws of Karma. Even the dinosaurs could not survive forever. I can tell, you have already assured your name will be among the true Kings when the real history of mankind is written.

    • What if the American Monetary Institute run by Zarlenga and
      Ellen Brown’s Public Banking aren’t right on the truth. What if Austrian economics is going to flourish as long as money exits? What if Anthony isn’t using simple and easy language and the money problem isn’t easy to understand because of that? What if there’s no Satan and people are just evil? Karma? What if you’re just part of the conspiracy whose job is to stroke ego’s?

      • Knowing others is wisdom, knowing yourself is Enlightenment.

        • Judging by the ratings on our consecutive comments, others like brown-noser’s and don’t like their fallacious paradigms questioned. And this is the best site on the web, pathetic.

          • Bourchakoun permalink

            No one is bothering to respond to you anymore, since it seves no purpose. Questioning and improving one’s outlook is beneficial, but only if something substantial is being offered. An exchange of ideas and opinions is a means of learning – meaningless or destructive comments provide nothing and are used by Trolls, Sockpuppet-Users and Agents of all sorts. The occasional crazy one is welcome too, but he obviously won’t attract a crowd just like in the real world.

          • The purpose of this blog is destruction. I’m either going to destruct your paradigm or you’re going to destruct my paradigm. Destruction of one’s paradigm is painful, sorry. How can you speak for everyone?

          • Your vacuous criticisms are pathetic. You haven’t said anything here that hasn’t been addressed and disabused. Everyone here knows money is an artificial construct that only become evil through usury. It should be just a vehicle for wealth transfer, not wealth in and of itself, or a tool to plunder and create insurmountable debt. That people agree with one another expresses only an appreciation for a commonly held truth, not a desire to please anyone. There is nothing wrong with playing a devils advocate, but you go too far with this sycophant blather. It’s the most desperate ad hominem.

          • People are evil, so they invented money. Disabuse that.

          • Some people don’t like that state of affairs and want very much to do away with usury.

          • So doing away with usury is going to make people good?

          • It’s going to prevent evil people from enslaving everyone with monetary debt. If people were immune to temptation, there would be no need for safeguards against corruption.

            Only the grace of God can make people good.

          • Money is debt, no?

          • No. Real money, as discussed here is merely a medium of exchange for labor, services and products and has no unearned rents attached in the form of interest. As a loan, it is solely principle.

          • Is that what’s discussed here?

          • Can someone purchase something put $1 on a piece of paper and purchase something without having to do anything in return?

          • Yes, its called public assistance for the poor, sick, unemployed and elderly. Charity is nice, but a very unreliable safety net.

          • Who determines who’s poor etc.?

          • Who’s the lender?

          • Ideally for me, a public bank. Others here have different ideas, but all would issue interest free principle.

          • What does the public bank have to lend?

          • Interest free Credit for the purchase of goods, services and labor.

          • How does someone lend “interest free credit”?

          • How is there no debt if there’s a loan?

          • There is no onerous debt. If I borrow 25 dollars I must only return 25 dollars that I generate via my labor.

          • So money is debt?

          • No. Money is the medium by which you pay your debts. Debt is the product or service that you owe payment in exchange for consuming.

          • So you owe money, and you owe a product or service?

          • Okay, philo. It’s been fun.

          • That video didn’t say anything about money or owing a product or service.

          • It’s about your method and intent.

          • The method is syllogistic dialogue. It’s how anyone actually learns anything important other than metaphorical picture weaving or illustration with animated characters in the process of doing something.

          • The method is sophistical nincompoopery. All you do is parse what people say into irrelevant and contentious avenues of thought. I’ve had plenty of experience with trolls using this technique. You can discuss things with them for hours — and get nowhere.

          • Is there such a thing as syllogistic dialogue?

          • What about checks and debit/credit cards? Are they money? I can make transfers with my phone. Is my phone money?

    • Thanks so much for this RR, well appreciated!

  13. Kevin Moore permalink

    As I see it, if everyone abided by the following we would not need money, nor would we therefore need a treasury.
    James 2:8 “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well …”
    Matthew 6:19 “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:…”
    1John 3:17 “But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?”
    Matthew 6:24 “No house-slave is able to serve two lords: for either he will hate the one, and he will love the other; or else he will cling to one, and he will despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and wealth.”
    1Timothy 6:6-10 “Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. But having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, of which some lusting after were seduced from the faith, and they themselves pierced through by many pains.”
    Matthew 23:11-12 “But the greater of you shall be your servant, and whoever will exalt himself will be humbled. And whoever will humble himself shall be exalted.”

    • I agree, but there will never be such a utopia before the second coming. The best we can do is try to make our monetary systems and forms of governance take into full account the fallen state of man.

      • Utopia is an idealistic place. Who is trying to create a place without coming up with a detailed description of how everything is going to work within that place and how to get there?

  14. REN permalink

    I don’t normally respond to trolls, but Philo you are confused and it is not helping the people here. Money is not debt. It is an abstract entity that mediates between debtors and creditors. I call it an accounting identity. Money exists in two forms, intangible ledger entries, and also in physical form. The physical form is tangible proof that the intangible exists. Humans like gold because it is a Noble metal that doesn’t rust, hence the physical form provides assurance that the intangible form is also “good as gold.”

    When you pick up an item at the store, you have become a “quasi” debtor. The store is the creditor. When you purchase the item, your money divides down to a price, and is then used to mediate between the debt and credit contract just formed. The money allows the transaction to take place, and debts and credits then cancel out. Therefore money is not credit nor is it debt, it is a medium of transfer.

    Is a forest credit or debt? When we take a tree and cut it down, make timber, and sell it into the market – only then does it become monetized. It was the raw materials of earth and the labor energy of man and machine, which then progressed to commodity. That commodity is then traded in a market, where money helps in the exchange transaction.

    Do this. Go up to your friend and say, “give me your cell phone (mobile if you are European).” Then ask them what they are feeling. That feeling is the debt/credit contract just formed in your minds. It is an intangible force caused by our evolution, where we traded goods with each other and expected fair play. The now new holder of the phone has become a debtor, and the creditor is owner who formerly had possession of said phone. In order to cancel the debt/credit contract just formed, the phone can be passed back to the original owner. Now ask the original owner what they are feeling. Credits and Debts are mathematical positive and negatives, and they cancel each other out. Passing the good, the phone back to creditor, instantly cancels the credit/debt contract. A good canceled the contract, not money. Money divides down at the moment of transaction, then STANDS IN AS A GOOD, and helps mediate the debt/credit transaction. Ask you friend if he would take money for his phone. And of course he will, we all have a price. The price is money’s ability to divide and find a common understanding between human debt/credits, thus allowing the contract to cancel.

    Money stands in as a GOOD, but is not a good. Money is NOT CREDIT, but helps facilitate credit/debt contracts. Because it stands in as a good, weak human minds conflate money as a good. It is equally true that since our current world paradigm is double entry ledger credit banking, that weak human minds think that all money is credit.

    If a bank cancels its debts, as in China, does that Yuan still need to vector back to the banker’s ledger to cancel into nothing? The answer is no, and hence that Yuan becomes floating. It can float and mediate credit/debt contracts forever. PUleease, we all know how a bank hypothecates on a double entry ledger. You are too sophomoric for this website. Go away and learn something, then come back and contribute in a meaningful way.

    Learn about Mutual Credit and other forms of money creation, there is plenty to read here if you are willing to listen and learn instead of spouting off and being annoying.

    • How in the hell can you say I’m not helping anyone here? What a fucking ego. Step up and have a dialogue with me. You’ll prove to yourself what b.s. you just said.

    • Kevin Moore permalink

      I would have to agree with Philo and say that money is issued as a debt.

      The way I see it “money” is issued when a signed promissory note pledging the result of ones own productivity is exchanged for tickets or tokens.

      Why does the ticket value have to be payed back when it is already paid for?

      How can tickets be issued as a debt when the ticket issuer has nothing and produces nothing?

      We should not even deal with such type of people –

      The General Epistle of Barnabus chapter 9 “………wherefore it is not the command of God that they should not eat these things; but Moses in the Spirit spake unto them, …….neither says he, shalt thou eat the eagle, nor the hawk, nor the kite, nor the crow; that is thou shalt not keep company with such kind of men as know not how by their labour and sweat to get themselves food; but injuriously ravish away the things of others; and watch how to lay snares for them; when at the same time they appear to live in perfect innocence………so these birds alone seek not food for themselves, but sitting idle seek how they may eat of the flesh others have provided; being destructive through their wickedness……..”

      Luke 6:34-35 “And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks is there to you? For the sinners lend to sinners, so that they may receive the same. But love your enemies, and do good and lend, hoping for nothing in return and your reward will be much; and you will be sons of the most high, because He is kind to the unthankful and evil ones”.

      • Did God die to fulfill your debt on a giant thing that looks like a T to make a point? The balance is the most basic accounting tool.

      • REN permalink

        Here is comment by Astle, referencing Aristotle:

        “the scholars still clearly understood the actuality of money and that it was an evincement of the law . They still understood it was but so many numbers injected into a circulation amongst the people relating value to value, and not in any way influenced by the material on which these numbers as laws were recorded.”

        The notion that money must come into being as credit is refuted by history at many points. It is the volume of abstract numbers that must match value, or in other words, goods and services. Our output as humans is matched by money, and hence money is a vehicle for exchanging our output…our value. These numbers are a function of law, and we have the power to change said law.

        A simple thought experiment: The law requires tangible money to be recalled, old money is to lose its value, and be replaced by new money. Losers in a war have lost their basis in law, and hence their money becomes valueless.

        All of that said, you can have money come into being as credit, for example mutual credit, and still have it behave properly. But, the nature of money is law, not credit. The notion that a good must be hypothecated to create money is a lie of gigantic proportions. People who use money to trade their output have no idea where it came from. It is simple faith they are using when they trade, and that faith is part of the law and faith nature of man.

        In science, if you have contradictory evidence, it disproves theories.

        As far as my “arrogance” goes, I don’t have to be a nice as Anthony. The truth is a velvet covered iron fist. The truth has weight to it, and it mails home and smashes into us. The truth sticks in the brain and festers because it cannot be ignored.

        Making ad-homiem attacks and strawman arguments are the provinces of losers, especially when they make claims in the face of obvious truths.

        Here is a link to Babylonian Woe, where the quote above is located:

        • Why would anyone reference a man whose job was to train conquerors on the topic of money? Just because Astle never said money is debt and there is no money without debt doesn’t mean he wasn’t full of shit.

          • In fairness, I agree with REN on several issues philo.

            Our current money may be debt, but we all know money can be created debt free. REN has never made another impression on me than very knowledgeable while looking to become even better, I see no arrogance in his stance. Meanwhile, you do come off as arrogant, even if only to provoke: you say things like ‘I’m here to shatter your illusion’. But I don’t see you listen, or really respond to what people say. And this is the hallmark of a non-arrogant person.

            The people commenting and discussing here are all well informed. We have disagreements on many issues, but nobody is speaking here without a solid footing in economics.

            Lastly: I, with REN, do not think your interventions are really helping people…….

            It’s good to converse and I’ve always appreciated your sharp mind, but I also appreciate the other minds here and I hope you can show similar appreciation to them and their positions.

            I guess our goal here is mainly to get better so we can prepare for what is coming, not so much being right or scoring points.

          • Give an example of debt-free money.

          • Social Credit. Newly mined Gold, minted and spent into circulation. Salt. Just a few that come to mind.

          • You mentioned some commodities that can be used for barter and the word “credit”. Does anyone have credit if a loan hasn’t been made?

          • No philo, are you kidding?

            I don’t take Gold or Salt in the transaction because I want Gold or Salt, but because they will give me what I DO want. That’s the essential nature of money as a means of exchange. Gold or Salt as money don’t derive their value from their nature as commodity, but from our agreement to use it as money.

            Social Credit is debt free paper printed by the state and spent into circulation by the people:

          • A commodity is a barter trade substance and there isn’t going to be any car manufacturing built on bartering. Promises are what makes the world go around. Can I be issued paper, buy a bunch of stuff and leave the state with it?

        • Another: There’s no faith involved. If you earn a dollar bill(because you put a $1 on your product), you’re guaranteed a borrower is going to put a $1 on his product to extinguish the debt between you and him. The money debt.

          • really? Is not the debt settled the moment you received the dollar?

          • No, the debt is established as soon as you receive the bill. It’s just a piece of paper remember. You had to work and traded your work for a piece of paper.

    • Ok, I’ll address this for example: If the bank cancels all debt in China, the people will be walking around with a bunch of useless paper and no food on store shelves.

      • This is correct of course: China’s money is credit based.
        You’re also right about interest-free credit being debt.

        But it’s easy to think of non-debt based items that can be used as money, I just mentioned a few.

        • REN permalink

          China cancels debts, and hence that portion of their money supply looses its credit association. In effect a large component of their supply becomes debt free. When a bank takes a haircut, a legal maneuver, the liability side of the double entry ledger is erased. This magic eraser makes the former “credit” as money loose its credit association. Therefore, that credit money already circulating in the supply is cast free. When the government rolls over Bonds, and then makes the FED reimburse profits, then the money issued as credit by the banker is essentially debt free. The debt ledger held by the bankers is then held over an ignorant population as a form of coercion, when in reality the Banks and FED are a creature of the law. There is no balancing, the only thing that matters is the volume of money in the supply relative to goods and services being produced. When a house or a car is repossessed, the credit/debt contract collapses, and the former credit money in the supply looses its credit association. This is why bankers like depressions, as it helps their con game because the supply needs money to offset banker credit and its associated usury.

          Mass Bills were issued and circulated, and they were good for paying taxes. They were not a promise to receive in anything (like Gold) and they circulated as money. The Bank of Canada, Guernsey Islands, Australia all experimented with portions of non debt type money in their supply.

          An example in modern times is South Africa. To get the natives to mine Gold and Diamonds, a head tax was imposed. Law and Force (the tax) made the natives work in the mines. Marketplaces then developed and a money economy was born.

          It only takes one example to disprove a theory.

          • REN permalink

            More examples: MEFO bills and Federer money, which funded a war time economy. Money is not credit, but it can have credit associations if the system is so designed. The lie of money being credit has been passed down for thousands of years as truth; this lie is fundamental to the operations of usurious private money masters.

            For creditors to release their money savings, and make loans, they need to be enticed with positive interest. Most, if not all economists take this on faith, and most do not examine this principle. Therefore, one hears canards uttered as if they were truths. If money doesn’t have debt association, then it becomes worthless. Yes, if all debt is repealed, in that case money looses it’s velocity “force” to return to the ledger. But, velocity forces are not only “enticement.”

            Taxes are a force to make the “paper” move. In this case it is a punitive force, a kick from behind rather than something which entices. Do you care if your car is front wheel drive, or rear wheel drive? I opt for rear wheel drive if it means no usury.

            Government spending and demanding it’s portion of the economy be in its unit of account forms acceptance, a type of faith agreement. Mutual Credit is really money circulating among those who are in high agreement. We will need Mutual Credit because our governments have been usurped by private double entry creditors. But, like gravity makes you fall toward earth, money has its ultimate basis in the law. I don’t really like that it is so, but I’ve come to accept it. I am not going to turn my head away from the usurious elephant in the room.

            The other side of the contract is debtor force. Debtors can choose not to pay, so in some respects they have power over Creditors. But, usually the law is invoked and punitive force is slammed down on debtor’s head. They go to jail. They can also have assets seized, which is a force i.e loss of wants.

            We need to come to grips with Credits and Debts, and how money mediates between them. Creditors (enticed to make loans with positive interest) are usually over Debtors, and this is an element of usury.

          • “For creditors to release their money savings, and make loans, they need to be enticed with positive interest.” – If by this you mean bankers, they don’t loan their savings. That would be loaning debt, because money is debt. They don’t loan anything. Maybe the confusion is because it sounds like I’m saying there is no lender.

          • Your so called “cast free” money isn’t money. It’s worthless pieces of paper and ledger credits watering down the value of the actual money. It’s called inflation. The FED has nothing to reimburse anyone. How does slave labor have anything to do with establishing a money economy other than money creates slaves? Can you please make shorter comments? You can make as many as you want.

          • REN permalink

            Philo, there is a very big distinction between credit as money and money. Money is an accounting identity that circulates in the supply, allowing transactions to be consummated. Credit as money issues forth from the double entry ledger. It is hypothecated into existence, and then circulates as money, then recalled to the ledger. When it enters the ledger if extinguishes from existence. A positive meets a negative (liability).

            Really, there is nothing you have said that we don’t know already. You are like a little kid in the classroom that keeps shouting. Your noise is drowning out the serious minded folks here. .

            When credit as money looses its credit association, it no longer needs to return to the ledger. It then becomes money. More specifically it then becomes floating money. In the case of China, other debtors can then grab that former credit as money, and use it to pay down their credit loans. This is a major feature of the Chinese economy, perhaps the major feature. Yet, your noise keeps this notion from even being expounded upon.

            A real money economy would have savers loan out their money OK. NOT BANKING CREDIT. We all know how banks work.

            Nuances in how Mutual Credit works, such as not calling in loans, could do the same. I’m trying to get at a real point here.

          • 1. You’re talking about yourself.
            2. Stop with the personal attacks, it doesn’t make you seem intelligent.
            3. Do defaults have anything to do with inflation?
            4. There can be no savers unless a loan has already been made.
            5. Shorter comments will help us get to a point easier.
            6. if you care about nuances, why don’t you write a dissertation on exactly who qualifies for how much credit?

          • REN permalink

            Anthony already told you that if there is gold coinage, say if somebody digs something out of the ground, coins it at the mint, that becomes debt free money. It is seigniorage against the money supply.

            Instead of just making false allegations, please consider that I’ve been trying to teach you things. Yet, you are unwilling to consider these points. It is without any shadow of a doubt that we have had periods in history with free coinage. That “money” then goes on to become savings. There was no loan to make savings.

            We just gave you dozens of examples of debt free money, and also how debt money can be freed.

            Yet, you are unwilling to consider these obvious truths and still stick doggedly to a false position. Money doesn’t have to come into existence with debt. I’m sorry your belief system is based on shibboleths and untruths.

            Reasonable people listen and consider the evidence, and then if necessary, change their belief system.

          • Gold is a commodity. Are you going to stamp $1 on an oz. of gold? $100,000,000 on an oz. of gold?
            Can you just rebut my premise or give a simple premise? You’re really starting to concern me. I consider you an intelligent person whom I’d like to be great friends with. You are teaching me. I don’t just believe without question everything I hear. I’m not a Nazi following Hitler.

          • REN permalink

            No, money is an abstraction, like numbers. Commodity money is used to control the ledger. I’ll speak more on it later.There are a lot of moving parts to money systems. It is not simple, but once you break through a few roadblocks it will get better.

          • Can you make your points in separate comments so they can be addressed one by one?

  15. REN permalink

    The Austrians use A-Priori reasoning. They invent an idea, and said idea is then used to build up their mind control in layers. If you question their flawed base assumptions, upon which their towering edifice is built, it comes crashing down. Things like human action and value theory are good examples of intellectual traps used to snare the unwary. Using usury to break down their edifice of B.S. is a great, because it gets right to the heart of the matter.

    Both sides of the dialectic use A-Priori to mask their agenda.

    After hardened iron was invented, silver could be mined more easily. International bullion brokers would sidle up to the unwary, and whisper lies such as money is silver. Of course the money masters controlled the mines. In reality the masters wanted to make loans on their clay ledgers. The abstract numbers on the ledger were created by a slave bearing down with a pen like stylus. But, to pay off the abstract numbers required commodity money. The abstract ledger money would be required to grow with usury, and be paid off with unlike types i.e. commodity metal such as gold or silver. If you couldn’t pay a growing abstraction, because there wasn’t enough commodity money in the supply, then they get your house or your wife or kids, or make you a slave. Once you are a slave, you most likely get to work in the mines till death.

    It is no accident that Jesus was killed for silver, because silver was “international” meaning it ringed the trading entrepots of the Mediterranean. International commodity money is beyond the reach of the state. This is why silver money debts could not be jubileed; silver debts were a generational contract. The bullion brokers and counting houses also controlled the exchange rate of Gold:Silver. So, these banking money masters would take the profits on east/west exchange difference between gold and silver. The also controlled the caravan routes upon which the east west spice and money trade traveled.

    When Jesus couldn’t recognize the Pharisees God, he most likely saw Babylonian money masters. It is easy for money masters to enter the temple, and then put well-meaning, but simple minded (in the ways of money) priests into debt. All of the trading entrepot cities used Aramaic as the money language. So, Israel was fully infected with the usury money master parasite. The Pharisees and their progeny went on to write the Babylonian Talmud, to codify control.

    The first step is to control the Temple with A-Priori reasoning, and then control the State. The ultimate objective is to use the State as a shield to protect your confidence game. At the same time, spread A-priori disinformation and control the minds of the sheeple. If anybody gets close to understanding money science, shut them down by all means. Jesus was a huge threat.

    On the other side of the dialectic are the foul words, “money is debt.” The objective is to control the ledger, put people in debt, induce usury and thus control society. This is why Chicago School type debt money masters are the same people as Commodity money masters.

    • bourchakoun permalink

      Excellently put. Though I am afraid that most states in the world shield the money power quite well already and have been doing so for quite some time.

      Would not surprise me if Jesus was also preaching plenty on the destructiveness of usury, which makes it a by far more compelling reason to ged rid of him. Unfortunately the New Testament is by no stretch complete and has likely been massively tampered with over the centuries – certainly in the early stages of Christianity.

      The steps to a better world are clear to most here anyway: First get rid of usury in an ever improving system and who knows later maybe get rid of money altogether when technology has been freed and has advanced sufficiently.

      If you think about it, it is truly foolish: When there is no sufficient money, it does not even pay to harvest agricultural crops for sale. Sooner or later usury and the money system will have to go – or otherwise an ever growing part of mankind will sit around in joblessness, idleness and complete slavery to a powerful few.

    • So you think Austrians are actually trying to keep bankers in control of the planet and not sincerely trying to come up with a solution to the disparity they believe is caused by the current banking practices? And they’re using mind control to do it? Or is it that they can’t even figure out for themselves what’s actually going on?

      • REN permalink

        Anthony, Meme and others have proven conclusively that Austrian mind control funding is provided by money masters. That information is available here under the links he has provided.

        It’s easier to diagram, but we have to use words. 1) You go to the bank and hypothecate a loan. 2) The double entry ledger is marked up 3) The liability side of ledger is marked with both principle and usury of your new loan. Also, you and your asset are attached to the ledger as a legal maneuver. 4) The principle of the loan is spent by you into the lower loop of the money supply. 5) Labor and producers use this lower loop as a public good, to trade their output.

        The bottom loop of money supply is always under drain pressure, as double entry credit disappears upon re-entry into the ledger. Some of the usury portion is re spent by the banks as employee wages, and also to pay “savers.” This creates a mind control, where savers think their money is being loaned by the bank. The rest of the usury portion – and it is a lot of money-goes on to become stagnant usury capital.

        Stagnant usury capital paretos to the top 1 percent of the banking pyramid. There it aggregates to be used to fund the mind control. Sorry about that, but your labor and output creates these funds as part of a system design. You can see the large usury funds flowing about world financial centers today, as it seeks out returns. In my view, the bottom loop should be able to save their wealth and not have it stolen by gamesmanship.

        The usury take unbalances the bottom loop, and hence the bottom loop must be filled or it will collapse. Keynes convinced governments that they had the duty to take out loans from private banks, and fill the bottom loop. The loans issued against govt bonds can be rolled over forever, hence the current world paradigm we are in now. Of course, the poison is the rolling over becomes an exponential usury “debt” function. Before Keynes, economies engaged in mercantilism, where they tried to drain money from other economies to fund their usury take on their lower loops. Countries that have large trade surplus are still mercantilist.

        Since the bottom loop is always under drain pressure, usury capital in the upper loop retreats and waits for labor to present its perishable goods and services for cheap. In this way you pay for your own mind control and debt peonage.

        When the disinformation curtain is pulled back, both double entry creditors and Austrian Gold buggers want a lower loop that is depressed and with them in control of stagnant usury capital. It is two poles of the same dialectic.

        So, the answer to your question, is unfortunately yes. The Austrians are all about ensaring young minds and leading them down a cul de sac of disinformation. Where do Austrians get their funding? Follow the money.

        • If everyone who’s opposed to Austrianism said, “From now on we’re going to support every policy you want to implement,” what would happen? One paragraph if possible.

          • REN permalink

            Private gold hoards would control the “reserve” loop of private banks. Gold would also be in the basket of currencies that settle international trade imbalances. So, in this way, the private gold hoards stick their nose, like a camel, back into the tent. Either way, it is the same people, private usury capitalists i.e. the banking elite. The world accelerates into one world government.

            The bottom line is that money is an abstract entity that follows rules and laws. Money is law and force, it is not gold or silver. One of the lies told to humanity is that Gold or Silver or something precious is at the base of money. These base assumptions need to be challenged, or you enter into their a-priori reasoning. As soon as you accept that something abstract is tangible, then you get pulled down their rabbit hole. Their reasoning is one layer of plausible lies added to more.

            Controlling the volume of Gold, would then have a follow on effect, where other money types can be contracted or expanded as desired by the hoards. Small amounts of gold contraction and expansion in the reserve loops, then controls the abstract ledger. Even better, since their hoards are confined to reserve loops and international baskets, their precious metals cannot easily get into the hands of labor.

          • So your saying everyone would see their policies don’t work and wouldn’t consider an Austrian worthy to lick the bottom of a boot? Isn’t that what you want?

          • REN permalink

            Their policies would work for them, but not for the bulk of humanity. It would be something like the matrix, where most people plugged in would be convinced that Gold is money, and that debt peonage is normal. Average sheeple would have no other frame of reference. Mind control for the sheeple, and rivers of wealth and power for the controllers. It’s a good gig if you are in the top 1% financial elite. And you can keep it all in the family and pass it down for generations.

          • We already live in a matrix where people believe a bank is lending something and this isn’t a big monopoly game.

          • Aren’t you saying money is abstract and it’s tangible?

          • REN permalink

            You aren’t paying attention. Money has two forms, the abstract and the tangible. The dominant form is the ledger i.e. intangible. Only about 3 percent of the money supply is coins and bills. Gold or silver as a money is far removed from the reality of money, which is abstract numbers relative to goods and services. Whenever you get mismatch of types, you know a game is being played, and you are the target. The ledger is what is important, and focus there.

            The Austrian’s would reintroduce gold as the physical form (tangible) and then let it be a controlling element on the ledger. It would be placed in reserve loops where it would be necessary to have on hand in order to hypothecate loans. You don’t hear the Austrians talking about eliminating the double entry ledger do you? The double entry mechanism is like a function machine in math, inputs are assets and future output of labor, and output is banker (debt) money. The input now needs gold to control the output. The human then is in debt bondage, and his debt instruments are traded on markets, as if he is a commodity. It is a continuation of debt peonage, and the controllers are those who own gold hoards. Who owns the hoards? All the gold mined in history is still around. It is about one human death per ounce. Gold is bloody and it is pathetic that mankind is still pretending it is money.

            Also, as soon as Gold is monetized, it becomes extremely valuable. The private hoards now have a superior capital position and can buy up now depressed real assets from laboring producers. Two birds with one stone, buy up real assets – gaining wealth and control, and increase international control of the banking system. The U.S. especially takes it in the rear, as the reserve currency wants to return home from overseas.

            In the past, gold and sliver would be melted down and spirited out of country. This is a form of full spectrum warfare, as it collapses an economy.

            The founding fathers wanted us to have our own country and not to be under debt peonage control of foreign money masters.

          • Isn’t a coin or bill just a representation of money? The same size piece of paper can have $1 on it or $100 on it. A coin with 10 cents on it is smaller than a coin with 1 cent on it.

          • REN permalink

            Ink on a ledger is money. Digital memory in a computer may represent money. It is abstract, just numbers. The physical representation of money is not very relevant. Pretty soon we will be beaming our accounts with our cell phones, and physical money will disappear.

          • I personally hope we never lose the physical aspect of money. Purely digital forms of money that can be controlled by a centralized authority, whether that be government or a corp, represents a threat to one freedom, privacy and life. The RFID chips the government wants to replace all physical monies with can be monitored and turned off, leaving you without a means of survival should you become unpopular with whomever is in control.

          • What’s the process in how the ink credits end up on the ledger or the credits originate in the computer?

          • Bankers never had enough gold if everybody wanted to redeem it for paper at once. Why would they now?

          • REN permalink

            The bankers will recall gold from the lower loop (us) during depressions. The upper loop of financial capitalists will hoard it, and use it to control the double entry ledger, and as well to mediate large international transactions. They will make sure the economy periodically has depressions by their control mechanisms. This means the U.S. role as reserve currency will be diminished or eliminated. The U.S. military is still a problem for the masters though.

          • That was the answer to a different question or something. Maybe you could clarify?

          • You want to eliminate the double entry ledger? Are you saying pieces of paper should be given to people and other people are going to accept those pieces of paper that were given away and a modern economy is going to function like that?

          • REN permalink

            Money at its root is law. As long as money is lawful, the people will use it. This is not speculation, it has been done. In particular, as long as money is available in the exact velocity- volume relative to goods-services, it will be well received.

          • If all debt was called right now, all the paper and coins would be sitting in a bank. Do you understand that?

          • Moneylender permalink

            Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take away from them the power to create money, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money..
            ~ Josiah Stamp – Bank of England Chairman, 1920s
            No Debt = No Money, DEBT is the money of slaves

          • Yeah, I wasn’t asking you, and you didn’t even answer the question. Notice how Stamp doesn’t offer a solution? The solution is the end of civilization. Money is the money of slaves.

          • moneylender permalink

            The solution is simple.

            Publicly owned Central Bank to issue Interest Free Loans for productive capacity.

            It’s self regulatory, money supply remains constant = Nil inflation

            Debt is the money of slaves, but money as such is a medium of exchange

          • It’s only simple if that’s your religion and you refuse to bother thinking about all the mechanics involved with banking whether it be public or private.

          • moneylender permalink

            The Bank has to be Publicly owned.I have seen most of the contributions thus far in this posting and in previous ones too.
            Most of you all are all over the places and keen on scoring cheap points,hence no clarity in thinking.
            That is why I keep it simple so that it can gel with most of the public.
            There have been success full track records to my proposals.
            Australia,Canada,Gurnsey, New Zealand and recently Malaysia,not forgetting the US.
            History is on our side.

          • Someone is going to have to come up with a detailed plan someday if the public is going to buy it. The examples of public banks you’ve given are no different than any other bank. Executives making millions of dollars and not lending anything.

          • Moneylender permalink

            You do not know what you are taking about, none of the banks wre involved in fractional banking, nor did the directors make money

          • No bank is involved in fractional banking. There is no fraction. For money to exist there must be debt. Money = debt. There isn’t a banker on the planet that thinks debt can be lent.

          • and I-don’t-know is on third…

          • Can you come up with an intelligent rebut?

          • Who’s on first…

          • Do you think people are given a $100k credit line not having to pay it back plus interest?

          • moneylender permalink

            You are all muddled up.
            You do not know how a government expenditure is funded.
            You do not know where 97%of the money supply of any country at any one time is derived from.
            As to your latest posting I am proposing Interest Free Loans,not handing out money willy nilly

          • You are muddled up. You can’t even answer a simple question. All money is derived from a bank taking a promissory note for money and then paper is issued to the person or an account is credited. There is no loan without debt. You won’t be loaning anything, a bank has nothing to loan.

          • Government is funded by taxation.

          • Should all those pieces of paper be given away to people?

          • Weren’t the founding fathers a bunch of slave owning aristocrat politicians who knew that civilization is just a huge monopoly game?

          • REN permalink

            The Bank of England came into being in 1694. This was the first time a private bank hosted a government. When the bank started to attack the Colonies, the revolutionary war began. Benjamin Franklin makes it clear in his statements that by restricting colonial scrip, and forcing the Americans to pay debts in Gold, it collapsed the Colonial economy, thus leading to high unemployment and then war. The supposed “tea party type taxes” were only a symptom of BOE predations, not the cause.

            Whatever the failings of the founding fathers, they tried to put humanity on the right course. It was the best chance we have had. Since Babylonian times, the money masters have been jerking humanity by the short hairs. We cannot evolve to our higher selves as long as the parasite is part of our system.

            Some of us understand how the money system works. Austrian mind controllers are an organ of the parasite, still trying to maintain its control. Consider, a really successful parasite will infect the brain and reproductive organs of its host. The parasite forces the host to feed and even what to think.

            Consider slavery, it was an institution funded and controlled by the masters. In the ancient silver mines, slaves were needed to cheaply extract the ore. Who owned the slave ships ? It was the masters, mostly located at the BOE and in Amsterdam. The downtown financial center of london, is actually banker owned land “The City of London.”

            So, the locus of evil in our time, is the money mechanism. Don’t blame the victims, look for the masters who are pulling the strings.

          • Didn’t Franklin really only care about where the next prostitute was?

          • If man was going to evolve to a “higher self”, don’t you think he would start by not buying slave manufactured clothing and slave grown food?

        • There is no loan until the principle is spent. Now there’s debt to be extinguished. You can’t just spend without doing anything in return.

        • Larry permalink

          REN wrote:

          “2) The double entry ledger is marked up 3) The liability side of ledger is marked with both principle and usury of your new loan…

          “You don’t hear the Austrians talking about eliminating the double entry ledger do you? The double entry mechanism is like a function machine in math…”

          Hello REN, I enjoy your articulate posts and usually learn something. However; I am not following your two references to a “double entry ledger” system as it appears that you object to the procedure?

          The double entry ledger complies with GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) which I contend works fine and serves us well.

          The all debt, interest bearing money system cannot be sustained, no matter what is used as money; but – the double entry system is not part of the problem. In fact, it is part of the solution as it explains a number of aberrations in the current system.

          Let me give you two examples of how the use of a double entry ledger (GAAP) can help clarify the complicated Federal Reserve system. The Federal Reserve violates GAAP every time they create “reserves.” Reserves are a quasi liability to the Fed which magically become assets to the banks.

          And, when the Fed writes a check, the money is created as it does not exist in any account – there is no balance. Neither of these events comply with GAAP and they should tell us that something is terribly awry in the system.

          You mentioned that “The liability side of ledger is marked with both principle and usury of your new loan….” but I don’t think that is true. The principal (liability) and asset match and are canceling entries upon repayment. Future interest is not a liability as it may be negated by paying off the loan ahead of time. Interest instead is part of a banks projected revenue.

          The double entry ledger will serve us well as we move to interest free loans. In which case, the banks future revenue may be anticipated through processing and collection fees.

          • REN permalink

            Larry, If your system is money, the double entry ledger works. If the system is banker credit, it does not work. Consider the housing bubble: An asset is hypothecated, and debt instrument is created, and banker money enters the money supply. The asset is usually part of the FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate). Insurance counter signs the ledger making it A rated, and real estate is pushed by new money creation because land doesn’t follow supply demand curves. This causes asset inflation, leading to more hypothecation, more debts, etc. in a feedback loop. The banker still gets his usury take, and the economy eventually collapses as debts outgrow productivity. The humans have their output collateralized as mortgage backed securities, which the FED eventually has to swap for in QE3. Productivity is siphoned away as rents paid to the masters in the form of debt payments.

            With a money economy, no banker money (credit) is hypothecated into existence. Money already is in the supply ready to be deployed, not created. The double entry ledger becomes a mechanism for defining how collateral will be transferred to creditor in the event of debtor failure to pay. Important, Creditor is no longer the banker assuming credit powers. Creditors become us, the savers (and I would add demurage to encourage loans to eliminate usury.) The double entry ledger no longer creates banker money, and hence is not the primary tool used by banking masters to control populations with debt bondage.

            In today’s credit money master world, bankers have interjected themselves between creditors and debtors (us). Their function should be to assess risk and allocate our saved capital, not make capital. We trusted them to hold our money, and they turned around and screwed us by taking seigniorage and usury profits of making money. The current incarnation of the double entry ledger may follow good accounting rules, but it does not stand up to scrutiny. And besides, what accountant really understands money, mostly they think in terms of numbers adding and subtracting.

            When I attack the double entry ledger, I’m pointing out that it is the main instrument of the masters; the locus of their control. I fully mean the credit hypothecation mechanism of double entry in combination with FIRE sector, that has mounted and parasitized mankind.

            If banks give out interest free MONEY loans (somebody’s savings) and then collects fees, that is very consistent with my world view on how a real economy should work. Banker’s return to their limited role of handling OUR money. The double entry mechanism’s behavior morphs to being useful, a subtle but important point.

          • REN permalink

            Larry, one more point please. If a legally constituted monetary authority can issue credit it can enter the same channels as money. In this way, money savers would have competition were they to hoard the money supply. BUT, it is one of my contentions, that credit must have the feature of jubilee.

            It is axiomatic, that private money creating corporations will NOT jubilee excess debts associated with credit and usury. Therefore, the legal method for creating credit must have a jubilee fail safe mechanism, and this fail safe is extremely unlikely given the rent seeking power mad behavior of money master parasites.

            Credit attaches to the future, and the future is unknown. Money already is, and hence comes from the past. Credit means future money (or future credit as money) must be in the supply to pay back loan payments, and former credit then disappears.

            To my mind, both credit and money have rules that are axiomatic, and beyond debate. Yet, we debate the concepts because they are purposefully hidden from out view.

          • The point of axiomatic rules is they are debatable. “Money is debt” is not an axiom, I can prove it.

          • REN permalink

            Philo, I proved to you that money is not debt. Did you already forget your lesson? Quit blabbing. You are messing up Anthony’s website, where people come to learn from each other. It is not point and counterpoint, trying to get the best of each other. If we know something, we pass it on, and it gets vetted. If an idea has no merit it should be dismissed. If an idea is reasonable, it finds resonance among like minded individuals. Larry was asking me a reasonable question, and our conversation has nothing to do with you. Larry is a sharp guy who can think for himself.

          • Can you just find the dialogue where you proved money is not debt and re-post it? Most of everything you post is regurgitated from crank economists. Anthony is free to delete comments if he chooses. Or he could re-post on a fresh page. Or he could post an analysis of a dialogue in the comments section. I’m not trying to “get the best” of anybody. I’m helping you plug the holes in your theories. You’re going to need an iron clad plan if you want it to sell. Are you the ultimate judge of what has merit? Larry is free to reply to everything you or I post, I think, unless he got blocked.

          • That’s why you can only win with an Austrian in your own mind. You can’t ask, “Why would anyone use someone else’s gold coin as a debt instrument when they could use a piece of paper as a debt instrument?” You can’t see that the paper is only money if it represent debt.

          • Who is the money deployed to Ren? Isn’t the deployer going to write down the names and expect the debt that was created when the deployee purchased something with the money be extinguished before he dies? This sounds like the policy I came up with five years ago. Instead of $100k be issued by a bank at interest to one person, $10k be issued to 10 people at no interest. I wasn’t considering the implications of everyone being illumined to the simplicity of money creation.

          • You can’t loan someone’s savings. They’re already debt. You can use them to purchase securities that may become worthless. That’s why I included brokerages in my policy.

          • Larry permalink

            REN wrote: “An asset is hypothecated, and debt instrument is created, and banker money enters the money supply. The asset is usually part of the FIRE sector (Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate). Insurance counter signs the ledger making it A rated, and real estate is pushed by new money creation because land doesn’t follow supply demand curves…

            “The double entry ledger becomes a mechanism for defining how collateral will be transferred to creditor in the event of debtor failure to pay.”

            REN; thanks for the explanation. No doubt, the real estate bubble provides a great example of how investment banks engage in fraud. Mortgage-backed Securities (MBS or Collateralized Debt Obligations) were created by the big Wall street investment banks in 2004 and they were wildly popular with investors. And they were used as capital by investment banks to create money for their own accounts.

            Companies like Bear Sterns were pledging the same mortgages into multiple MBS bundles while other brokers used foreclosed real estate and the bundles were rated A. Bad mortgages were given out, on a growing basis, to keep up with demand while providing ponzi pay-offs in the form of dividends to keep the scheme going.

            In 2008, the system began collapsing which prompted TARP to stop what was becoming a domino effect that was taking down the “too big too fail” banks that perpetuated the scam. The “toxic assets” were worthless and rather than allow the system to cleanse the bad debt, the banks were bailed out.

            I just don’t see how double entry accounting procedures can be blamed. Maybe I’m missing your point.

          • REN permalink

            Larry, here is a thesis paper that describes the double entry mechanism. As well it shows the creation of M1 is a function of commercial banks, which in turn use the double entry ledger. Making loans against mortgages, and also commercial paper, MBS, Stocks, etc. allow a uncontrolled growth and collapse of the money supply.

            As Huber says, this double entry credit mechanism expands and contracts bubbles. It makes the economy gyrate widely.

            The double entry ledger is blamed because it creates credit against assets such as mortgages (causing asset inflation) and also against financial vehicles (which are leveraged). The double entry ledger when coupled with the credit mechanism is a clear danger, especially in private hands whereby the profit motive/usury is the dominant driving force.

            During depressions and inevitable collapses, the corresponding debts have to be wiped out, leaving money in the supply (hence growth in supply), and also a sorting from poor to rich (creating oligarchy).


    • Like Bourchakoun said REN: well put.

  16. Kevin Moore permalink

    How is it that money created out of thin air is issued as a debt?
    “Money” is issued when a signed promissory note pledging the result of ones own productivity is exchanged for tickets or tokens.
    Why is it that the value of tickets/tokens have to be payed back to a Bank when they have already been paid for with a promissory note? But then again why does one have to pledge their productivity for something that doesn’t exist? How can anyone claim ownership of a means of exchange?
    If I purchase a ticket to ride on a bus; at the end of the journey I don’t give the value of the ticket to the bus company again plus interest – the ticket has served its purpose and is invalid.
    How come Bank tickets are issued as a debt while the ticket issuer has nothing and produces nothing but tickets that are accepted as the value of the buyers pledge of productivity. A contract is an exchange of value for value.
    Matthew 5:37 “But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
    We should not even deal in such contracts nor with such type of people –
    The General Epistle of Barnabus chapter 9 “………wherefore it is not the command of God that they should not eat these things; but Moses in the Spirit spake unto them, …….neither says he, shalt thou eat the eagle, nor the hawk, nor the kite, nor the crow; that is thou shalt not keep company with such kind of men as know not how by their labour and sweat to get themselves food; but injuriously ravish away the things of others; and watch how to lay snares for them; when at the same time they appear to live in perfect innocence………so these birds alone seek not food for themselves, but sitting idle seek how they may eat of the flesh others have provided; being destructive through their wickedness……..”
    Luke 6:34-35 “And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive what thanks is there to you? For the sinners lend to sinners, so that they may receive the same. But love your enemies, and do good and lend, hoping for nothing in return and your reward will be much; and you will be sons of the most high, because He is kind to the unthankful and evil ones”.

    • The banker is making sure the debt that was created when you purchased something with the paper he issued you as a borrower is extinguished. Banker issues paper to you, you purchase(which is to borrow, creating debt actually), you extinguish the debt by earning back the paper to bring back to the banker. He charges compound interest both because he can and to create the illusion he’s the lender. If the debt is not extinguished or defaulted on, it means less product with $ signs on it and more pieces of paper chasing it – inflation.

  17. Larry permalink

    Anthony mentioned that with the demise of Austrian cult views on monetary reform; we may start to see meaningful alternative ideas emerge. For example, the Austrians do not even consider having the state issue its own money free from the usury of the banking cartel. They claim that government cannot be trusted; despite the unbelievable savings, which seems to me to be both unconstitutional and idiotic.

    Scott Baker points out that H.R. 2535: Liberty Coinage and Deficit Reduction Act of 2013, has just been introduced by Rep. Garland “Andy” Barr [R-KY6].

    “To cause increased seigniorage for the United States Mint leading to enhanced revenue to the Treasury and increased offsets to annual budget deficits in perpetuity, to require the Secretary of the Treasury to mint and issue coins commemorating and celebrating American Liberty, “The Union”, and the American values and attributes of freedom, independence, civil governance, enlightenment, peace, strength, equality, democracy, and justice, to provide for the continued and concurrent production and distribution of existing presidentially-themed circulating and numismatic coinage designs, and for other purposes.

    “The reason this bill is so important has nothing to do with commemorations and celebrations of liberty, etc. though it would do all that, not symbolically, but in actual fact. From section 2, paragraph 3 of this 15-page bill:

    “During the 10 years of the 50 State Quarters Program, the cumulative production of quarter dollars exceeded 34,000,000,000, representing a 136 percent increase in quarter dollar production as compared to the cumulative 10-year period immediately preceding the program. This enhanced production level of quarter dollars resulted in increased seigniorage revenues of approximately $3,000,000,000 and, therefore, an equal reduction in the budget deficit.

    “Although this bill deals with coins only, and although it emphasizes deficit reduction, it clearly reestablishes Congress’ option (some would say, duty) to “coin (create) Money” — Money being capitalized to indicate ALL forms of money, not just physical coins. If we can gain seigniorage from government coin creation, we can do so with government paper money creation – and have done so.” —

    If people figure out that we can create and issue our own money, they will begin to see that the entire national debt is by choice and not necessity. We are free, through congress, to create enough money to repay the entire debt for free.

    Would that be inflationary? No, the debt would be retired and the money would remain in the economy – it is a neutral change.

    Sound too good to be true? Well, remember that the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve did just that when they issued the money! We back their money and we can back our own money in eliminating the debt and interest.

    • sounds to me like an idea for which these times are ripe Larry!

    • The only way government can have savings is if people went to a bank to have debt in terms of money facilitated and then taxed. People have to bring all those dollars back to the bank or they get foreclosed on. Governments number one job is to maintain the monopoly on the creation of money so the country’s structure doesn’t collapse. If Barr knows that, he certainly isn’t going to expose it.

      • Larry permalink

        As usual, I have no idea what you are trying to say – if anything. You seem to be a sophist from what I can see.

        • Whatever you do, don’t bother asking me to clarify anything for you. Keep writing your fallacious essays and calling others sophists.

    • Just because you stamp a number on a base metal coin doesn’t turn it into money. It’s brought to bank and issued with a promissory note to bring it back. If it was possible for the bank to call all loans at once, all the paper and coins would be sitting in banks worthless and there would be no more economy. The government is just a puppet show.

    • The national debt insures all the people who are living on government bonds can sit on their asses for the rest of their lives. Are you trying to mess things up for them?

      • The national debt insures that eventually you and everyone else will be sitting next to them in dire irreversible poverty.

        • Everyone isn’t going to be in poverty. There is no bottom without a middle and a top. It’s all relationships. For instance, those who can’t see the pattern the stock market is in since ’87 will lose. At the same time those who can will win. It’s a monopoly game.

          • Ever increasing artificial debt will eventually exceed the productive capacity for middle and working classes to repay. It already has. Look at Detroit and Greece. Real assets, wealth, property will be seized in default and given/auctioned to the 1%. And you will still be in debt, own nothing and depend upon wealthiest classes for survival as the slaves were in the southern plantations pre civil war.

            The stock market is rigged by the banks with their high speed algorithmic trading programs. Unless you’re a bank or a hedge fund, you will always lose. And the worst thing of all is that the DOJ and FBI don’t have a clue of how to stop all the white collar banking crime. Currently they are using a definition of fraud supplied by Mortgage Bankers Association, a trade union of the banksters, which partially explains why there have been no indictments or prosecutions of late.

          • The FBI’s job is to enforce the monopoly. There will always be people living in big houses, small houses and slums.

          • It’s not their job to enforce monopolies, though that is what they do nowadays. They should enforce the law equally against everyone, especially against those that mastermind and originate the fraud, and not just against their underlings for show.

            You sound like you approve of what is being done. Maybe you’re work for Godlman Sachs?

          • If I worked for Goldman Sachs, I wouldn’t need to get my thrills debating people online. I don’t approve of this whole artificial and unnatural construct called “civilization”, but I don’t hold anyone particularly responsible for the disaster it is.

          • bourchakoun permalink

            Answering you is obviously completely useless – as if answering a paid money power PR-net-agent. What is worse is, that you are likely not paid to do so.

            BTW – economic models in history are highly different with extremely different standards of living. Sure, as long as money is around there will be the wealthy, the middle class and the poor. But the “poor” in the models proposed here would have a nice house or appartment and comfortable living conditions for them and their children. It does not matter, whether some would have even grander houses and a far better lifestyle.

          • Look mister paranoid, you need to come up with a manifesto. “The Debt-Freeist Manifesto”, or something. Are you going to force the poor that now live in nice houses to work in garment factories? That’s the only way you’re going to afford not making your own clothes.

          • REN permalink

            The poor don’t need to work in garmet factories. For a good to be produced it is: Earth (minerals/energy/material) + machine + labor. The machinery is becoming smart, and hence the need for labor declines.

            Eventually we get to lights out factories owned by the 1%. There is little need for labor.

            We are already entering that point, especially as Capital flies about the world looking for cheaper labor. That is, labor that is cheaper than capital + machines. Eliminating this “capital” mechanism would return those life decisions to the political element, i.e. the sovereign.

            But, ironically, that is how the U.S. got rich, machines that made labor more productive. The middle class was formed as they learned how to produce more with less labor inputs. As we enter this new automated smart machine world, our money system will have to change.

          • I agree. We are at a time when working for necessities of survival should not be necessary. The technologies at our disposal can provide enough food, shelter and medical care for everyone on the planet. People should be able to work shorter hours and for higher, chosen interests. But since we are all bound to the treadmill of perpetual debt to an elite few through usury, this is not possible.

          • bourchakoun permalink

            I agree. Not only is technology out there already which makes energy practically free, but there exist also 1000 times more effective batteries. Of course those inventions are about as profitable as a cheap effective cancer treatment or non-usurous money creation or Jak-Bank-like real-estate credit.

            Apart from that – shoes and garments could still be produced within the developed countries for a few bucks more at retail prices. There are even interviews with i.e. French CEOs who have stated that they moved production to China, because it was demanded of them and they received incentives – some have openly stated that there was hardly even a productive reason for it!

            So yes – even with the permitted technologies labour is a disappearing necessity and the monetary system will have to change or you will have Judge-Dredd-like living conditions with 90% unemployment.

    • It sounds like a step towards nationalization of the Fed or at least the outbreak of public banking on a state and municipal level. Even if it fails like Elizabeth Tierney bank on student loans act did, it will hopefully do as you say and bring awareness to the fraud that has be perpetrated against us since 1913.

  18. This article evoked a tremendous response. Philo looks desperate and typing away to oblivion. A critical mass of awakened leaders in military and politics is all it will take to end the ponzi scheme.

    • Why don’t you rebut something I’ve said retard.

    • Perhaps. I’m not too sure about the goons in the paramilitary parading as the police, let alone the Greatest Killing Machine Ever To Have Scorched The Earth, aka the US military.

      On the other hand: the word is getting around, it’s even in Washington now, I hear from some people there.

  19. By “truthers” you, of course, mean full time liars; the trojan infiltrators such as yourself

    • Why don’t you point out something specific he’s lying about in your opinion and you can have a dialogue about it?

  20. Claire permalink

    Who is Henry Macow, afterall?

    • I only know a Henry Makow, but besides that: I’d be curious to understand the point of this comment?

    • Henry Makow is Migchels’ is mentor. If you want to know about his character, just read what Jeff Rense and David Icke wrote of him.

      Makow is johny-cum-lately peddler, raised up by Jeff Rense; a doctor of the english language who is not able to compose a decent essay; his main interest in life was to look for strange pussy in strange places, he travelled all the way to the other side of the planet to get himself a sex toy, half his age
      He somehow acquired expert knowledge on homosexual hazing practices and satanist rituals (he must have been a partaker or eye-witness)

      • I’d be interested to hear from you who DOES qualify. Makow, in my view, is a very important thought leader. He’s been combating feminism and the gay lobby for 10 years now. It’s only very recent that some others are slowly picking it up.

        His analysis of how Jewry itself is a captive of the Money Power is outstanding.

  21. Atrocious lie in the first paragraph
    >>>>>Austrianism was and always has been the Money Power’s tool to subvert American Populism all throughout the 20th century right up to today
    the fact is that populism was subverted by marxists –just read LaFollete’s or Turner’s (or Coxey’s) eye witness accounts; people like Ellen Brown, Mrs. Kucinich infiltrated the ranks of the discontented and destroyed it from within.

    party platforms:—

    another Migchels lie:
    Ellen Brown is a tool of the money power and a proponent of the new world order; but Migchels and the Chihuahua/Chiwawa would never tell it

    who received more votes? the constitutional party? or the monetary reformists ?

    what is the alexa graph showing on Makow, Zarlenga, Brown, B.S. ?
    How is Alex Jones doing ?
    (larry the leech used to have a blog but he took it down; is that a sign of anything ?)

    • REN permalink

      Name: Read your own blog:

      (Notice the parallels below between “Browns” public banking and Venice. It takes State Power to force Gold into circulation. It takes mercantilism to recall it from overseas. So, why do you attack public banking, when you laud the public Bank of Venice?)

      Moreover, the only bank on the globe that ever operated on a vast scale, with perfect consistency, perfect satisfaction, and long-continued success completely ignored that implement of inflation, contraction and suspension commonly known as a “specie basis” with “redemption on demand.” This was the Bank of Venice, to which the Bank of France is now, in effect, the nearest approximation.

      It was instituted in 1171 on loans to the government by wealthy citizens… (The wealthy were coerced to give their money to the bank, and there the money stayed to recirculate for centuries. This was already existing money, not really credit.)

      The capital was made divisible and transferable on the books of the bank and this feature constituted the stock a medium of exchange — money. The government fixed no time to repay the loans; but the bank soon became so strong, popular and necessary that no one desired they should ever be paid. They became simply so much capital of the nation, invested in a great, cheap tool — a currency of sufficient volume to meet the requirements of Venetian trade. (Notice it is the intangible ledger money that is important here…not the Gold. The VOLUME IS SUFFICIENT FOR TRADE. The numbers transferred on the ledger with perfect efficiency. So why do we focus on damn bloody gold when the ledger is more important? Maybe Gold seizes weak minds like some sort of mind control?)

      Coin always flowed into the bank in abundance, with no promise of specie redemption. It was taken by the State, once and for good. But it was immediately paid out for State-expenses, and thus turned directly back into the smaller currents of trade. (The STATE using its power, forced gold into circulation. The STATE is in power here, not the money masters. PUBLIC banking has STATE bureaucrats in charge, notice the similarity. Why do you attack Brown?)

      The State had solved the problem of trade — had furnished a sufficient medium of exchange to transfer the world’s commodities with perfect ease and rapidity. (Using the ledger.)

      When Buonaparte conquered Italy, the Bank of Venice fell with the State. But the invader gained nothing by it — no gold, no silver, no riches that he could utilize. He simply destroyed the credit of an institution that had stood spotless and perfect for six centuries. (So, your hero Napoleon also took Gold from his conquered territories?)

      Coin holders gladly pushed it off their hands at whatever small advance they could get, knowing that the vast industries of Venice would soon call it back, as surely as the Venetian sun would draw moisture from the earth and the sea. (Only a trade surplus mercantilist country can recall the GOLD in sufficient quantities so it can be FORCED back into circulation. Can all countries be mercantilist? The obvious answer is NO.)

      (So, only under limited circumstances, i.e. a powerful mercantilist STATE controlled economy, can a Gold based economy work. Hey that sounds like Fascism, not the Freedom specie pretends. No matter what, specie sucks as a monetary unit.)

      • You do realize middle class historians write books for middle class consumers, right? They don’t write books that tell the truth for people that can’t afford books. Don’t buy the rosy picture for all lies.

      • Wealthy citizens don’t loan anything. They consume. They play the monopoly game well and acquire ownership of the means of production and property to rent.

    • Marx called for a gold standard.

    • Name, I sympathize with your position on Kucinich. In fact: last year I sent an article to Henry exposing Kucinich’s cultural marxism. He wouldn’t post and he was right: the article was insufficiently developed. But the grist is clear and I have serious questions. Hamiltonian stuff IS ultimately comfortable for the Money Power, because it so clearly empowers the State. The State, btw, that you so openly admire in Fascism.

      Ellen is something else. She openly says she considers herself a socialist. Clearly this is quite stupid. It goes well with the huffpost/occupy crowd (the latter, btw, are getting better).

      She should know better, as she should know full well about the Cap/Marx dialectic.
      It seems she has ego issues and is not proactively enough ridding herself of old programming. I have sympathy for that, because it’s a quite human condition. Her socialism is not too aggressive, she just doesn’t want people to starve by killing social security etc. I’m on her side on this.

      For the time being she’s a powerful and positive influence. Her analysis of banking is nothing short of extremely impressive. The time has not come yet to clear up these issues in a man to man talk, of which Ellen is fully capable. That time undoubtedly will come.

      I assume you are fully capable of checking alexa yourself. Makow has a major site, the others do not. Prison Planet is doing ok (stable) in terms of views, but not in terms of reputation. My hunch is that Jones is bleeding viewers who improve, but on the other hand is gaining from his MSM exposure. He’s still attractive to the newly initiated.

      • Aren’t you confusing socialism with dirigisme ? The two have overlapping similarities but are not at all the same with regard to maintaining freedom and civil liberties. The latter does not involve a change in government. The constitution was never threatened under the presidency of Franklin Roosevelt.

        • they’re her words pm, not mine.

          Public Banking was used by both the Marxists and the fascists, btw, and nowadays by Russia and China, as they are being built up. The Nazis did it more or less interest-free, so theirs was best. The others were/are usurious. I don’t really care for the latter, as that really is socialist in the sense that it disowns people and redistributes to the state.

          • My only contention is that there is no causal relationship between public national banking and having a national policy directing economic matters. Hitler dissolved the German government legally, using a emergency provision as a result of a false flag Reichstag fire. His putsch wasn’t caused by power he gained from interest free money, but from Hindenburg’s trust and naïve belief that Hilter could be controlled. Same in Russia and China, Marxism and communism arose and prospered only because of the money, technology and intellectual capital given from Usury banking and Wallsteet, as Anthony C. Sutton so well documents.

            They use public banking in a limited sense. Slave labor still exists (to make American goods) and property/accounts are routinely confiscated when individuals contradict party lines.

            Everyone thinks its normal and democratic to have the government ensure the survival of the military industrial machine, but not jobs and standards of life for people?


          • The reason why usurious Public Banks are good to build nations, is because the State does not get drained through debt service. The US loses 450 billion per year on that alone. It’s huge. Of course, this is not even half of the story: much more interest even is lost by the populations: hence: interest-free public banks would totally outperform usurious ones.

            Hitler did not gain power through interest free money, true, but Germany’s economy after his putsch certainly did.

            These points are purely to elucidate, if necessary, not to argue.

            About your last paragraph: I don’t believe the Government is responsible for jobs and standards of living. The people themselves are.

            The Government must defend the realm and also has a role to play in infrastructure, but less is more: Autocracy (it doesn’t matter if parades as ‘democracy’) is not much better than Plutocracy.

            I think the real goal of Government is to protect access to the commons (water, air, land and money/credit being the main items) for all commoners, in such a way as to protect the commons against ‘the tragedy of the commons’ (people taking more than their share).

            If people have land and credit, they don’t need the Government to provide jobs. They will create their own.

            Mind you: I’m not looking for confrontation with you, I’m just exploring the issue, it’s quite fundamental and I don’t want to suggest I have the answers here.

          • My view of the purpose of Government is summed up by John Week’s quotation of Franklin Roosevelt :
            jobs for those who can work; equality of opportunity for youth and for others; security for those who need it; the ending of special privilege for the few; the preservation of civil liberties for all; the enjoyment of the fruits of scientific progress in a wider and constantly rising standard of living.

            Now, if none of these things are needed because the Gelre has caught on universally and is able to make everyone self sufficient, then Government need not and should not intervene. But in my view we will need quite a bit of Roosevelt’s dirigisme to reach that very distant goal.

          • Fine, I can live with that.

            For it, we need a completely new movement with a clear cut agenda that spells out exactly how this is to be achieved.

            Obviously, the main item should be monetary reform. that would kill most privilege, almost settle the land issue (very important), would not require any more Government intervention for job creation (as most people older than 30 would be self-employed), would do more for civil liberties than 10 bill of rights.

            Killing ‘intellectual property rights’ should be very high on the agenda. That single measure will end monopolization of science. The idea that people invent stuff to become billionaires is just so insanely stupid, it boggles the mind. It kills innovation.

  22. Europe:

    Migchels consistently refuses to address the reality in Holland; that the country is infested with and is being over-run by alien (and in-assimilable) races who never in their existence and history cared or considered what and how should be money. The real problem in Holland is NOT bank paper but the extinction of the Dutch gene-pool.

    In Germany:
    That country is also infested with alien races (who couldn’t care less about the money question); the germans themselves are not stupid, they are for stable(hard) money, and they will hardly listen to Margrit’s subversive ideas (which ideas, by the way, are false on their premise)

    In France
    They traditionally do not give a flying hoot about monetary alternator ideas; they remember well the hard money instituted by Napoleon Bonaparte; they also remember that it was paper money interests who destroyed the nephew’s republic; the french population is dying out, being re-placed by africans

    In Switzerland where Silvio was allowed to take refuge is not about to allow the best currency there is to be destroyed by maggot infested hippies and their drug-induced concepts; people of Europe (especially outside of Euro) if they can afford, hoard their means in swiss frank (and not in Migchels’s or Margrit’s idiot notes)

    the situation is the same there, too; the island is infested and over-run by aliens (with no interest in alternator currencies); white population is dying

    How about Spain and Portugal?
    Is anyone there clamouring for drunken sailor money; or do they try to hoard in the matress something that retains its purchasing power for years ? Before the Euro the spanish hoarded under the floor currency which retained its purchasing power; white population is dying out

    Sweden is all for stable money, not room for Migchels there); white population is dying out

    Irish land
    All these reformators and alternators congressed there (like syphillis); other than separating a few victims from their money what have these charlatans accomplished ? are the Irish getting a taste for worthless paper and commune ideas ?

    got what they deserve; is the opinion turning towards Gesell/Kennedy funny money, or towards stable fascist money ?

    If anything, they are for stable fascist money; white population is dying out

    Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria, Rumania
    any luck there ? white population is also dying

    Not a chance for Migchels there; white population is dying

    firmly in the silver camp; population is growing

    firmly in the gold camp; population is growing

    not a beep about funny money

    110 million people paid to see the super bowl; how many people voted for Kucinich ?

    Ventura, as Libertarian, could become Governor, once; could E.B. or B.S. do so ?

    every day 25 million people listen to Rush Limbaugh; how many listens to E.B. who can’t even defend her own position when Mr. Shiff asks her ?

    • Man, you have no concept of what a dialogue is. I take it you think an economy can be run with nothing but people trading precious/semiprecious metal coins?

    • REN permalink

      Name – Read your own blog:

      Babylonian Woe clearly describes how “sliver” hard money infiltrated Greece, and the surrounding region. The “hard” money overcame the sovereign type, eventually causing the original white population of Greece to be supplanted.

      Lycurgus introduced iron Peleanors, which made Sparta immune to the foreign “hard” money.

      “Sparta, early in the Millennium had come to understand the real significance of precious metal money, as being part of an international confidence game. Sparta also realized the destructive forces inherent in the activities of its controllers and the foreign luxury traders they encouraged and financed in order to debilitate the people, and so make absolute their own secret hegemony, such as destroyed all racial pride in that people on whom they were battening, and thus destroying their will to resist through creating obsession with pleasure. The evidence is in the findings of the British School at Athens from their excavations at the site of the city of Sparta”

      Gold and Silver can be melted down and spirited out of the country, allowing an economy to collapse.

      Actually it is sovereign law based fiat money that allows a sovereign civilization to come into being. When King Henry kicked out the usurious Jews in 1100 AD, he allowed them to take their “hard” money with them, which then collapsed the money supply. In order to get paid, he was forced to introduce the Talley stick. This kept the foreign element out for 500 years, until the attacks of Cromwell and the “hard” money bankers of Holland.

      It is Capitalism, and the “pay to the bearer” upon demand as money that doesn’t care about race or sovereignty. It is capitalism and its usury that flows to the lowest level, flowing overseas or importing people to monetize cheap labor in order to pay the usury. Babylon itself was the first multicultural city, as required by parasitic usury “hard” capital. Our Babylonian friends had not trouble making slaves of populations, especially Greeks and those peoples of the Balkans.

      If you want the white population to stay intact, then you should be for sovereign fiat money that doesn’t require usury. If you want tribes to have their own lands, then you should be for sovereign money.

      • Why can’t you make as simple short counter point to one of his points? Here’s an example: What you refer to as a “sovereign civilization” had a huge base of slaves, a smaller middle class, and a few people living in opulence. Is that what you want?

      • absolutely REN.

    • Of course whitey is being marauded Name, what the hell? I’m not too sure of Russia btw, but most other nations are suiciding with sexual ‘liberation’, promoting sodomy in kindergarten, brainwashing women to divorce and rip children from their fathers, not to mention mass immigration and ‘affirmative action’.

      But are you aware of the concept of ’cause and effect’?

  23. Lie number 17:

    “The shocking realization that the Federal Reserve Bank is privately owned by its member banks is one of the defining moments in any Truthseeker’s path. Eustace Mullins, coached by the indefatigable Ezra Pound, wrote ‘the Secrets of the Federal Reserve’, listing the banks owning the system. Ed Griffin then infamously plagiarized this book with his ‘the Creature of Jekyll Island’, to push the John Birch/Libertarian poison of the Gold Standard as a solution. We’re still dealing with this today, as seen in the ‘End the Fed’ movement.”

    Bill Still infamously plagiarised Mullins’ work as much as Griffin did, to make some easy money; of course for this Migchels considers charlatan Bill Still a hero
    Eustace Mullins himself considered gold and silver coin the constitutional money of the United States (Migchels fully knows this, but he continues to lie)
    Ezra Pound was a poet and not an expert on money; or even much of a student of the history of banking;
    Ezra Pound was a fascist –he had first hand experience– but Migchels hates fascism, he hates the concept of nation state; he hates stable currency (which the fascist state issued); Migchels would also hate the concept of corporate state if he knew what it was

    Which one of ye truth seekers (in your dream; ye are groupies, seekers of cheer-leaders, to whom ye religiously attach yourselves, as Migchels attached himself to B.S., to E.B. and to Makow) did shockingly realize that the member banks own the fed? did Ellen Brown (or B.S. or Makow) ever tell ye that the fed was owned by the member banks –just last week ye said it was privately owned by misterious figures who cannot be discovered…..
    Only the ignorant is shocked, in 1913 it was told loud and clear to any one who listened that the Federal Reserve system will be owned by the member banks……
    Mullins got his original impetus from Pound but this was also his hindrence; Pound swalllowed the regurgitation that Overholser fed him; Pound could have walked into the New York Public library and read 5,400 pages of Thomas Jefferson’s papers (it was easier for him to write that it was not available); Pound could have read the record of congress and the history of banking in the U.S. but it was easier for him to write that Van Burens memoires were not published until much later —Van Buren’s speeches and papers of the 1830s were published in the 1830s……..
    End the Fed movement
    for years Larry the leech ended his every post with the slogen to end the fed, are you saying that this mororn did not know what he was trying impress the people with ? (he won’t give handjobs nomore)

    If you ever climb the mountain of truth, you will find me sitting there, bored out of my mind (of course, the 3 charlatans will still be your heroes)
    is still the one and only source of your finagled wisdom

    • Well, there you have it straight from hank Paulson’s mouth. He thinks Goldman Sachs is a PUBLIC BANK (!) and therefore that must mean that the Fed is too; hence, all that compound interest and derivatives being siphoned off to the private sector and making us all poor is just a figment of our imaginations. He also likes fascism, corporatism (corporate controlled government), usury, the gold standard and all the ways this causes a tyrannical boot to stomp on the face of humanity forever.

    • The Fed is owned by the following banks :
      Rothschild Bank of London, Warburg Bank of Hamburg, Rothschild Bank of Berlin, Lehman Brothers of New York, Lazard Brothers of Paris, Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York, Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy Goldman, Sachs of New York ,Warburg Bank of Amsterdam Chase Manhattan Bank of New York (page 13)

      See also “Savings and Loan Unethical Bailout” by Rev. Casimir F. Gierut

    • Larry permalink

      The prickly nameless789 wrote:

      “Which one of ye truth seekers (in your dream; ye are groupies, seekers of cheer-leaders, to whom ye religiously attach yourselves, as Migchels attached himself to B.S., to E.B. and to Makow) did shockingly realize that the member banks own the fed? did Ellen Brown (or B.S. or Makow) ever tell ye that the fed was owned by the member banks…”

      Had you bothered to check, you would have seen that all of the people you mentioned explained the known shareholders of the privately held Federal Reserve.

      Bill Still
      Watch and LEARN:

      Ellen Brown
      Ellen carefully covers the shareholders of the Federal Reserve in the “Web of Debt” You probably won’t buy her book so here’s a free explanation from Ms. Brown:

      Who Owns The Federal Reserve? The Fed is privately owned. Its shareholders are private banks

      “Its shareholders are private banks. In fact, 100% of its shareholders are private banks. None of its stock is owned by the government…

      If you had bothered to actually read this blog, “Real Currencies” you would have seen that our host has addressed this issue many times.

      “Here’s some text from the link, from the FED itself: ‘The 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by the Congress as the operating arms of the nation’s central banking system, are organized similarly to private corporations–possibly leading to some confusion about “ownership.” For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.’

      “So while the FED tries to downplay private ownership, it does not deny it. Its stock cannot be traded, but this is not a limitation, it’s a sure way of keeping outsiders out.”

      But we shouldn’t be surprised that you don’t actually read/comprehend what is posted in blogs after all, you don’t read your own. You discredit and disparage many of the people who you publish on your blog (e.g. Mary Hobart and Gertrude Cougan).

      REN confronted you on this issue HERE and <a href="HERE and HERE and <a href="<a href="HERE but you never bothered to respond (too busy ranting).

      Stop attacking and start listening and learning – Read my earlier post in another thread:

      “Four private banks collectively own just over 50% (controlling interest) of the Federal Reserve stock (Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup and Wachovia/Wells Fargo). And the top 10 banks, own over 68% of the stock. Basically, 10 “too big to fail” banks control the monetary policy of the United States and inexplicably, the Federal Reserve regulates its owners in a colossal conflict of interest.

      “The all-powerful New York Branch of the Federal Reserve is at the center of the network as that is where monetary policy and market manipulations take place. The New York Fed controls the interest rate and the money supply through open market operations. They also manipulate markets through the Plunge Protection Team and Maiden Lane. Wall Street Banks; including JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup and Goldman Sachs; are the majority shareholders of the New York Fed.”

      You’re too busy tossing grenades at the top of the comments to actually read how others later tear your rants apart. You re-loop the same ‘ol merit-less, contemptuous and vile posts over and over no matter what the topic at hand may be. It is offensive, distracting and down right boring.

      • nice one Larry.

        • Yes passing gas is a “nice one” to you, specially from Larry the silver collector; but all of you failed to show the owners of even one bank
          and if you go back to the origin of this who owns the Fed thread: it started with calling the bluff of big mouth Larry the destroyed of the Fed, to show his bravery by looking up the owneship of just one bank
          how many weeks went by, and still farting is the only thing ye are able to do

          >>>>>>> Four private banks collectively own just over 50% (controlling interest) of the Federal Reserve stock (Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup and Wachovia/Wells Fargo).
          As we just shown not long ago 55% of the shares of Bank of America is held by pension funds and mutual funds…..
          75% of the shares of JP Morgan is held by pension funds and mutual funds…..

          If JP Morgan is the determining factor in the New York Fed, and thereby in the whole system, then these pension funds are the big bad bankers ye parrot about

          and that is why ye are sorely afraid to check out reality (and also, because ye are intellectually deficient)

          any one of you, and one of your favourite charlatans, could write an e-mail to the New York Federal Reserve and ask for a list of member banks; then any one of ye could write one of those banks and ask for a list own shareholders;
          but farting and regurgitating and parotting is the sum total and the extent of your ability

          Ye read book by Coogan, Hobart, Emery; but your lack of knowledge and mental deficiency prevents you from a) understanding what ye read; b) noticing the glaring errors in those books

          thank you for once again showing that you are unable to comprehend what you read (I did not mention Goldman sachs)

          • You posted the investor disclosure of Goldman Sachs(or another member bank) in another article by Anthony to make the absurd claim that the Fed was therefore a Public bank. Just because some private stockholders benefit from usury profits on money creation doesn’t mean the public in general does too. In fact, these stockholders benefit at the expense of the public — unlike a true public bank in which everyone in society participates in and benefits from the issuance of interest free money/credit.

            Also, as William Black asserts,

            “Shareholders rarely control banks – CEOs do. “Banks” are almost always controlled by their CEOs. The CEOs often run banks to maximize their personal interests and a substantial number of CEOs do this at the expense of the shareholders and the bank. CEOs decide whether banks will make political contributions, fund academic chairs, and hire economists as consultants and speakers. The CEOs typically spend the banks’ money and the amount of money they use to fund politicians and economists represents “chump change” from a large bank’s perspective – but a fortune from the perspective of the politician or economist. What I am describing are basic incentive structures that every neoclassical economist purports to believe – except when it comes to them and their donors. Then they suddenly believe that their luncheon speeches are really so brilliant that the CEO paid $50,000 to them to deliver a canned speech because the speech will transform the way the firm operates. The self-deception is pathetic.”

          • Here’s the link to your nonsense about Bank of America. It’s one of the six that control the Fed. I got it mixed up with GS because that’s where your hero Hank Paulson drunken sailor buddies are.

      • >>>>>> You probably won’t buy her book so here’s a free

        Larry the leech knows full well that 2-3 years ago –around the time of Gary North’s valiant effort to awaken the victims of Ellen Brown– I read Web of debt from one end to the other; and prepapred a sizeable critique of it; this critique I sent to Larry the leech (at the time he had no objection to any of my points), and even posted it on the forum of one of Larry’s friends (another fake-quote regurgitator); so Larry is aware that my very low opinion on Brown and “Web of debt” is based on having read what infiltrator Brown peddles……. so much for Larry’s low moral character and habitual lying

        My contempt for conspiracist book-peddlers and their groupies is the result of having read more conspiracist books than Ellen Brown, Bill Still and all their groupies put together…….. It is better phrased in reverse –because knowing more on the subject than B.S. and E.B. is not that much of an accomplishment– B.S. and E.B. know lot less about money and banking and its history than I do; so the next time you want to refer to or copy & paste from someone, refer to someone who studied the subject, like DiLorenzo

        My observation that conspiracists lack knowledge, lie constantly, and have low moral character is the result of encountering them on this forum and on many other forums……. People who have the ability and willingness to learn, grow out of it, and turn from the charlatans; people who have basic morality and sense of right and wrong turn from plagiarists who steal other people’s work to make money of it…….

    • Now what do YOU want Name? I’m in a foul mood, no fouler perhaps than is your usual attitude, but that’s pretty bad as it is.

      My dear and good friend Bill Still does not promote gold as currency, does not want to force usurious lending through the throat of normal people and does not go around foul mouthing everybody who’s made mistakes. Hence he is so much more pleasant to be around with than you. Can you begin to comprehend that?

      What the hell did I do wrong now. Of course it’s the member banks that own the Fed. Even that SOB Griffin got that right, didn’t he?

      Excuse me for being one of the 7 billion in deep coma before finding out about it, 10 years ago. You know I”m just salon-stoner, so do you mind?

      You fully deserve the hard on you so proudly flaunt with your uncanny historical knowledge.

      Too bad you seem to miss the basics of modern monetary theory, but hey, even the great Name789 is not Jesus Christ, so I don’t care too much.

      • there is no “modern” theory !
        money follows a law since Adam & Eve

        your mentor stole as much as Griffin did, that is why you idolize him

  24. Goods are the medium of exchange for goods etc.. Money is establishing debt and transferring debt. Without banks, there would be no modern economy. A free market would be one with no money in it, in other words, a primitive economy.

    • So we should go back, if ever there was such a time, to barter? Barter is not fungible means of transaction. All commerce and economic growth would be halted and destroyed.

      Is the money is your pocket debt? or does it represent purchasing power gained through labor and production.

      • IF the bankers are ever put out of business, barter and personal IOU’s will be the only thing in the market. That is until people get duped into exchanging generic IOU’s facilitated by a third party with an accounting staff.

      • You still have to pay interest when the bank didn’t loan anything.

  25. yep, your collateral on the receivership our government went under during the Rosevelt admininistration because they couldn’t pay the interest on the monetary debt. The banks demanded payment in gold the rest comes indefinitely from your labors.

    meet your strawman.

  26. Nice rebuttal! You really proved your point.

  27. He doesn’t even get the part about banks not lending anything. Maybe you don’t either.

  28. Redistribution is taking from one group by taxation and giving that to another group.

    Public banking is just removing interest from loans that people would already obtain for their business or living needs. That it. They aren’t dictating how and where people spend their money.

    If, of course, by redistribution you mean that public banking is depriving the private fed cartel of bilking unearned taxes in the form of interest from the taxpayer and giving it to themselves, then I plead guilty.

  29. And buying slave manufactured clothing and food so they can afford a house.

  30. As soon as the oil boom dies things will change.

  31. As long as volume is controlled to meet demand, inflation and deflation, will never be a problem. This can easily be done by the treasury or congress. In commodity money, wherein the demand for money can be manipulated on the markets by the very rich, deflationary crashes have always occurred.

    Why defend these private sector thieves? Hasn’t LIBOR exposed them as such on the grandest of scales by now to everyone? Except you perhaps, who thinks that just because theft has occurred from the beginning of time, it should be protected and considered natural.

    • And you are telling US we are ‘spiritual dreamers’? While you are doing nothing but explaining how wonderful it all will be when the Money Power finally gets the Gold Standard right?

    • What determines the amount of money created in a interest free monetary system or that money is created at all? Goods produced, services rendered and labors performed ? You can’t have one without the other, not today. I don’t believe pure barter economies ever existed outside of economic textbooks anyway. Sure, the type of money used is based upon an agreement, but that money comes into existence at all depends upon labor and the fruits thereof. Why have money otherwise?

    • I was just trying to state that debt free money, unlike the monetary agreement called usury, arises to meet real economic needs and demands. What economic need does usury arise from or satisfy except greed?

  32. Kevin Moore permalink

    There is nothing more deceptive
    than an obvious fact.

    • The trick is convincing someone of that. You have to patiently gently chisel away at their paradigm by exposing fallacies in their logic one by one. If I have a fallacious paradigm, I’m not going to just believe someone who says it is without proving it.

  33. Money (and credit) should not have a price because it is not a commodity. More: it’s part of the Commons, we all have a right to it, like sunshine, simply because we partake in the economy. Money is not part of the economy, it is to facilitate the economy.

    It has nothing to do with ‘statist’ price control. Nobody is going to outlaw usury. We are making it superfluous. Nobody is going to a 5% gold bank if they can get it at 0%. No coercion of any kind.

  34. Ah! that’s so much better!

    Troll Mike is gone and won’t be seen on this blog again for more than a few hours.

    Of course he’s more than welcome to open up his own blog and attack my positions here. Perhaps I’ll respond, perhaps not.

    Discussion, as always, is welcome, but just regurgitating the well done Austrian homework without paying any attention to what people are saying is, as described in the comment policy, not something I want here.

  35. Ok enough of this crap. Friendly people are now calling in to say the blog is under attack so it’s over cumbersome now.

    No more Mike and philo you’re on notice too.

    I was happy to see you back after a year, but I’m not any more. You’ve got a tiny bit of credit left for old time’s sake to show that you can restrain yourself and put a little prickliness in here and there without getting cocky and endlessly repeating your two or three points you’re making. There will be no more warning.

    I’m going to clean up the page a little later, I took out the most annoying stuff.

    • Wouldn’t you want Tom Woods to know he could come here and debate anyone without having to worry about his comments being deleted? I could make him ask you to delete his own comments. Don’t you want someone to come along, read my comments, and finally disprove that there is no debt free money once and for all without spouting platitudes and ignoring my replies? I was going to prove to Bravo that his “minted coins” theory of commerce was his delusion if you would’ve given me time. In the process everyone could have learned exactly how to do it.

  36. Thats’s 2 trillion in interest owed to all creditors OUTSIDE THE FEDERAL GOVERNEMENT — and the Fed is the major one as they originate all monetary loans — not china. Even the GAO and treasury admit that the FED is not a government agency. If you’re going to persist in denying this then, you’re worse than an idiot; you’re a liar.

    • pm, as usual, your posts hit the mark while bringing up new stuff.

      pm wrote: “Thats’s 2 trillion in interest owed to all creditors OUTSIDE THE FEDERAL GOVERNEMENT…”

      How did you come to that interest number? Sounds realistic; just wondering.

      You specify that the Federal (national) government owes creditors “OUTSIDE THE FEDERAL GOVERNEMENT.”

      This is a noteworthy accounting anomaly in my opinion; how does the Federal government borrow from itself? Or better yet, why? Why do you lend money to yourself? How can one party be the creditor and debtor to the same money?

      • I got the interest figure from Hold you cursor over the statistic in question to reveal an explanation and source it at the top of the page. RT had an article on this topic recently too

        The following link from the General Accounting office describes the two components from which the federal debt is comprised : Debt held by government accounts and Debt held by public accounts.

        How indeed does the government borrow from itself — and end up with debt? Perhaps because it borrows from a private banking cartel instead? For if the government did charge itself interest (if that even makes sense) wouldn’t this money be on hand to fund the budget? Who is getting these interest payments if not the government ? You’re the forensic MPE accountant, so you tell me.

        • Rats. You escaped. is a good little revenue stream for someone. I should have thought of it.

          • Not really, the whole world is one big gunny sack.

          • I was practicing ascending pentatonic scales one day – CDEGACDEGA….. I played it descending and the truth started to crystallize. If anyone was going to break out, it was going to be me. It’s not. But I’ll sure try to help anyone who thinks it’s going to be them! I’ll do it by dispelling the fallacies in their paradigm. God bless ’em if they never give up. “Never say never” – the greatest philosopher pop music ever knew – Justin Bieber. What a paradox.

        • REN permalink

          Below link is a paper that describes how the modern monetary system works. Government does borrow from private banks. Therefore almost all money is a form of bank money. When government deficit spends, it adds to the money supply. New TBills that enter the primary market are either funded by new loans from primary dealers, or existing money supply is aggregated to buy said TBills. In this way, there is never a bond failure.

          Later, the primary dealers can pass the bond on to the FED, and in this way all of the books balance. The new TBill found new money created on the FEDs keyboard. The new Tbill was ex nihlo and so was the FEDs keyboard entry.

          Passing a new Tbill through the primary market was ostensibly to sanitize the money through markets, and prevent direct funding of government. In practice, the notion of sanitizing is a nonsense carryover from the metal age. In reality, there is never a bond failure, and loans always preceded deposits. If the deposit doesn’t recycle back to the bank in time, reserves are found on the interbank market, or through the FED’s discount window. Banks are not reserve constrained, and the money multiplier is a myth.

          • This is how private banks, eg., Fed reserve cartel, work and why governments shouldn’t borrow from them and why people shouldn’t leave deposits with them.

          • 82513 Cypress was trying to keep its currency from collapsing. Any bank is a gamble. There would be no money with no banks. At 5:00 the guy says “once you give a bank your money, the money is no longer yours.” There would be no money if someone didn’t go to a bank to facilitate a loan. You need to tell people to stop going to a bank to facilitate a loan, but the economy will shut down if everyone did that. That would never happen because banks would offer terms people won’t refuse. This is all the result of the paradigm that money is something other than debt. 10:25 Mike Krauss is propagating the nonsense that money “works”. I’m leaving a comment on YT if anyone wants to debate the fallacies in this video.

          • “The paper seeks to provide the reader with a better overall understanding of money, the modern monetary system, the banking system and how the monetary system as a whole can be used to achieve prosperity.” – prosperity for who? Lots of people are very prosperous under the current system.

            “Monetary Realism (MR) is a description of the fiat monetary system applicable to nations who are issuers of their own currency, but have outsourced the broader money supply to the private banking system.” – is there a narrower money supply out there that isn’t sourced by a private bank?
            Who is Cullen O. Roche Orcam Financial Group, LLC?

      • I’ll take this one since I abducted pm and tied him up in a gunnysack in my basement. He got the number from a site some guy put up – All money is owed to a bank somewhere by someone with a mortgage for example. When that money is paid to the bank it doesn’t exist anymore. The bank trades a piece of paper called a “bond” to the FED For some pieces of paper called “dollars”. They aren’t money yet. The banker can’t just go out and spend them because he would never be able to bring them back to the FED. He loans the paper to workers who he can buy stuff from with the interest he collects. Paper isn’t really anything let alone numbers on a ledger. Once the worker buys something with the paper, it becomes money in the sellers pocket because the worker will be producing stuff to exchange for the pieces of paper so he can bring them back to the bank. Sometimes someone saves a bunch of dollars and trades them to the gov. for a piece of paper called a “bond”. They call that government borrowing. I could go on, but people don’t really learn from essays. They learn from dialogue. I learned that from hours of dialogue with people.

        • It’s a good thing someone is trading dollars for bonds. That way the government has dollars to trade for bonds. People need to believe their money “works” for them Those dollars are holding little welding torches on bridge construction projects. They sit at little desks and council people at the Dep. of Health Services. I wish I knew how to make cartoons.

  37. Please remove “Hamiltonian/Larouchian”. Hamilton’s name should not be tied to the anchor that is the Larouche movement.

  38. REN permalink

    A takedown of Neo Austrian Theory by Huber:

    Neo-Austrians between Gold Standard, 100% Reserve, and Free Banking. Notes on the occasion of reading Jesús Huerta de Soto

    • Why doesn’t Joseph Huber just ask why anyone would go to a guy with a huge vault of lifeless gold to facilitate debt between other people and pay him compound interest on that debt? Does he not know that’s all a bank is doing? I’m sure he’s living off of a fat pension teaching economics all his life. There’s only one way to prove Austrians are full of crap to the whole world – implement their policies. It’s not even possible.

    • Thanks Jarl! I saw this and posted this on my page:

      “The American Free Press posted an article claiming Hungary is printing debt-free money.

      I have not been able to validate it.

      It is, however, true there is some sort of nationalist push against the CB, claiming much more influence. It also paid of the IMF to get rid of it.

      It looks like it’s moving more to the Russian monetary model, where the Kremlin has a lot of influence with the CB. I don’t think Russia has any foreign debt at the moment. There are a number of large public banks.”

      • The BRICS international bank could save a lot of countries from the debt slavery/destabilization/usurpation imposed by the IMF; if only they would start lending to countries in need and currently being targeted — like Egypt, Syrian and Iran.

    • I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hungary show up on the State Department’s terrorist watch list. “Hungary must be freed from Al Quida terrorists like Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lybia!”

    • Are they going to start printing forints and dumping them in the street? Or, are they going to take them to a bank to be issued at interest? All the forints in circulation are owed to a bank, plus interest. One thing is for certain – there will be war, probably civil since they don’t have any oil.

    • Larry permalink

      Jarl posted: Hungary Sheds Bankers’ Shackles

      Not since the 1930s in Germany has a major European country dared to escape from the clutches of the Rothschild-controlled international banking cartels. This is stupendous news that should encourage nationalist patriots worldwide to increase the fight for freedom from financial tyranny.

      Too good to be true? Reuters also had an article:

      HIGHLIGHTS-Hungary PM Orban’s remarks on economy… ON BANK OWNERSHIP

      “A significant part of the Hungarian banking system is in foreign hands. When trouble hits the banking system then foreign banks begin treating their problems by reducing their loan books in foreign countries…

      “The moral of this is singular: it is not healthy that the owners of the Hungarian banking system are foreigners to the extent that they are… Therefore – obviously respecting international agreements and relevant economic norms – we must strive to increase Hungarian ownership in the Hungarian banking system. The government has a target number about that, we would like for the Hungarian banking system to be at least 50 percent Hungarian owned.

      “ON INTEREST RATES – Without trying to tell the central bank what to do, it is a key question that the interest rate level in Hungary become lower, that in some way the government, the central bank, business associations and others can present a plan to businesses that enables them to take out corporate loans not just a little, but significantly below 8-10 percent.

      “ON FX LENDING – The issue of foreign currency loans is one of national sovereignty as well. Of course it is a matter of living standards, family housing, businesses making it or not, but in my mind it is fundamentally a matter of sovereignty. Because if our foreign currency debt exceeds a certain level – be it the state, local governments or businesses – it means that even as we have our own currency, which is an advantage versus the euro zone, we cannot take the advantages because the foreign currency loans keep us captives of our foreign exchange policy…There is one way to break free: if we break free of foreign currency lending.

      “ON FREEDOM TO ACT – In reality, this story was about whether we believe we can stand on our own two feet. The struggle to regain our freedom to act is our most important struggle, which you can call a freedom fight, seeing as we are considered 19th century, but the exact way to put it is the struggle to regain our freedom to act.”

      The next logical step (both common sense and basic mathematics); is for Hungary to issue the national government 0% bonds that have no defined maturity date. Or better yet, issue debt free money to pay for public infrastructure (e.g. transportation).

      It sure seems to be a big step in the right direction though you have to wonder if the international banking cartel will bully Hungary for going out of step. Foreign banks may still hold 49% of the stock in Hungary’s central bank and it will be interesting to see how much weight (usury) they carry.

      This is the kind of thing that can get thinking people thinking if engaged…

      • These are pretty serious words by Orban, I think we’ll agree. Thank you for this link Larry!

        What is your position on the monetary situation in Russia Larry?

      • There’s a certain number of forints in circulation. Add up all that are in savings, checking and pockets. This is going to roughly equal the promises to return forints to the bank by borrowers. This is their cash supply. “Or better yet, issue debt free money to pay for public infrastructure (e.g. transportation).” If by this you mean government spending without billing taxpayers, that’s going to dilute the cash supply by causing an imbalance. Yes, infrastructure will be built, but the pensioners won’t be very happy unless they get a cost of living increase. Whether it would help the businesses that borrowed using foreign currency, I don’t know considering how the exchange rate is handled.

  39. Re: Too good to be true? Reuters also had an article:
    HIGHLIGHTS-Hungary PM Orban’s remarks on economy

    Larry and his handjob buddy Migchels is too dim to comprehend that this bit of news from Hungary (where the only intelligent life forms reside”) is another nail in the im-possibility equation of the dumb & dumber and the subversive;

    it is very clear that Orbán Viktor and the managers in Hungary were not aware of the new-age invention that priciple and interest are im-possible to pay –neither has Orban Victor heard of the other brain-dead concept propagated by Migchels that the priciple is not important; the government simply decided to extinguish the debt, and proceeded to extinguish it.
    How did they do it ? Did they reach for one of the concepts of monetary reformators ? did they send envoys to Margrit, or Still, or Brown to enlighten them as to how? did they dig up the dead bones of Gesell and asked for advice ?
    No, they used the age-old method that normal people use when they are in debt, they decreased government expenditures and increased taxes, and paid the debt………. Perhaps, instead of vacationing in Irish land (at other people’s expense) and in drug-dens conjuring up really stupid theories, the vermin congressing in the monetary reformist subculture should study up on what the Government of Hungary have done in the past 3 years

    Unfortunately for Migchels and Larry, Orbán Viktor has a lot more in common with Governor Scott Walker than with any of the dullest dullards (Mary Hobart’s term, because she was rude like me) of realcurrencies bowel movement

    • moneylender permalink

      Hungary followed the norm.

      There was only one country when I challenged the leader in order that for his country to be truly Fee & Sovereign, he should not be dictated to by the International Mafia Finance (IMF) or any other Financial Terrorists.

      As he was bankrolling the ANC against the wishes of the U.K and the US, the powers that be were determined to bring his country to heel, do a quick fire sale of it’s oil, industries etc, etc.

      Initially they orchestrated an ASEAN crisis,every member except one was dictated to by the Financial Terrorists, having bullied the rest into submission, they deciended on his capital, hoping for a plain sailing.

      Apparently he told the WB,& IMF that they are un elected un accountable stooges of the American Plutocracy and dare not dictate to a leader of a Sovereign country as to how it’s monetary and fiscal policies to be conducted.

      Gave them marching orders and they left the country by return flight.

      The Broad sheets of both sides of the Atlantic and the Economic pundits of both continents went to town.

      He took on the Murdoch rags the FT, Washington Post, etc head on including the pundits and challenged them to sue him.They all collapsed in a heap.

      Within six months he had the GDP growing at 6%, massive infrastructure programme was undertaken with out borrowing a scent or a penny.

      In the good old days the powers that be would have send in the Economic Hitman or even the gun boats, because that country had no gun boats or WMDs etc, just a token Army and Navy.

      The leader had never compromised and when he retired/resigned, the government felt sorry for him and gave him a plot of land and loan to put up a small house.

      I also challenged him to abolish capital punishment which he failed.

      The PIGS could have solved their problems, noe of the politicians had the fire in their bellies or steel in their veins to follow my options, as they have all compromisd.

      I will not comment any further as I feel every one is simply point scoring and incapable of thinking out side the box, in capable of Paradigm shift

    • REN permalink


      Mary Hobart makes some assertions that are patently false in the modern monetary world. They were actually false at the time of her writing.

      “Many suppose the business of a bank to be to borrow money of one person and loan it to another. It does this incidentally, to be sure, but this forms an insignificant part of its transactions. As has been stated before, the largest field of its operations is to deal in debts and credits. That is the banker says to the community, let me have your debts at a discount and I will give you my credit at a premium. Now if there was money enough either of gold, silver or paper, or all three taken together, rightly issued, to do the business of the country, there would be no necessity of creating debts to any extent. – Hobart”

      Banks do NOT borrow money of one person and loan it to another. Mary is confused on this point. Banks instead hypothecate the borrower by using borrower’s credit. The bank never had credit to begin with, it borrows it from debtor in a twist of logic. The bank simply expands its double entry ledger by loaning out credit and then receiving the deposit. The deposit is then seen as a liability (sequestered money), and the asset side of ledger is marked with debt instrument relating to the hypothecated asset i.e. house + usury. By law, the sequestered liability cannot be loaned out to another person. The banker may now sweep sequestered liability into the overnight repo market (per Greenspan), and then gamble with it, but that is another story.

      When Mary says that if there is enough gold or silver or paper, rightly issued – she is referring to some sort of sovereign money – it can be no other way. The business of the country refers to goods and services being produced, and the amount of money in circulation should match that volume of goods and services. But, the volume of gold and silver can never match goods and services, unless it is forced into circulation. People want to hoard gold and silver, as part of their nature. So, Mary suffers many logical fallacies in her approach.

      • Well, don’t tell me; tell Larry the leech
        I already know that she made up a straw man of impossibility then tore it down

    • REN permalink

      With regards to intelligence of Hungarians, it should manifest itself in IQ. That seems to NOT be the case per Lynn and Vanhanen. IQ and the Wealth of Nations.

      In IQ and wealth of nations, the IQ of Hungary is 99. Ironically, the handjobbers in the Netherlands are higher average than Caucasoid normal at 102.

      Maybe the high IQ Khazaris, i.e. Ashkenazi Jews, i.e. Babylonian money powers, are what is referenced? In that case, high intelligence has been put to work for in-group selfish aggrandizement and predatory money master behavior. .

    • Name, what source do you recommend to study Nazi money?


      • shouldn’t you address this to your Chihuahua? he is not looking for meme any time soon;
        or to your friend, Larry the leech? since he ended the Fed, he is looking for something to do;
        or to the fountain of your inspiration? Ellen, the expert on national socialist finances

        There is a large library in Amsterdam, full of books and newspapers; get on your bicycle and visit the place, and read what was written on the subject in the 1930s;
        If I am not mistaken, there is a whole entire Germany next door, with a Margrit in it; ride the train to Frankfurt or München, and see what you can find


        why not study the economic and financial system of Holland in the 1950s and 1960s ?

  40. Larry permalink

    the nameless twit #789 ranted:

    “…priciple and interest are im-possible to pay…

    “How did they do it ? Did they reach for one of the concepts of monetary reformators ? did they send envoys to Margrit, or Still, or Brown to enlighten them as to how? did they dig up the dead bones of Gesell and asked for advice ?

    “No, they used the age-old method that normal people use when they are in debt, they decreased government expenditures and increased taxes, and paid the debt………. Perhaps, instead of vacationing…”

    The nit wit thinks that instead of seeking monet

  41. Larry permalink

    the nameless twit #789 ranted:

    “…it is very clear that Orbán Viktor and the managers in Hungary were not aware of the new-age invention that priciple and interest are im-possible to pay…

    “How did they do it ? Did they reach for one of the concepts of monetary reformators ?

    “No, they used the age-old method that normal people use when they are in debt, they decreased government expenditures and increased taxes, and paid the debt………. Perhaps, instead of vacationing…”

    Instead of seeking monetary reform, the nameless nit wit would have the people live under cruel austerity in an attempt to repay the banks. The twit suggests that taxes be increased and that people should skip vacations.

    The buffoon would have many suffer through bankruptcy and poverty – including nation states – to protect the banking system.

    Wake up you moron! The system is a pyramid scheme! It was designed to just what it is doing today!

  42. Justin permalink

    I would say that Libertarian blogs are getting less hits as most of that crowd has now turned into “Anarcho-Capitalists”. It’s more of the same, “hate the state” rhetoric, but they never really address the money power. No doubt “the state” bears some of the blame, but we have never really seen a state exist without these parasites, so deleting the “elite” should be their 1st priority.

  43. Paul permalink

    This article is pretty interesting. I wish the comments had stayed on point…

    I was a big fan of libertarianism for quite some time, attracted by their clear exposition of the wrongs of gov’t. and such. But bit by bit, it became clear that they had absolutely no coherent morality to guide their philosophy. They are happy to disdain the non-agression principle in any number of areas (or at least define it out of existence). Essentially, “You’re not the Boss of Me!” does not go very far in political discourse nor in ordering society for the greatest good.

    For example, homosexuality is considered by libertarians to be a classic freedom issue, between two consenting adults. But in reality, today, a man can no longer be alone with a male teen due to the “freedoms” enjoyed between consenting adults. This is due to the corrosive effects that the predatory nature of homosexuality has upon society. Ask the Catholics, ask the Boy Scouts, ask teachers.

    Anyway, the amorality or immorality of libertarianism is what made me wake up and see that it would not work. And that’s why I don’t follow it any more.

    Until this article, I had not realized that I was part of a trend.


  44. The graphs look at a 2 year span. Thats a fluctuation- CONSIDERING 2012 WAS AN ELECTION YEAR where people google search and end up more often on those pages. Exemplifies that opponents of such a sound school of thought must rely on straw men. As a devout Austrian; I will happily debate anyone from this page, on their terms and conditions, anytime. Feel free to send me your best article critiquing Austrianism, I will happily reply extensively.

    Please consider, I’m always interested to hear new view points.

    • Hi Keith, I’d recommend reading my debates with the Daily Bell and Gary North first. There are also some major articles about Tom Woods’ positions. You can find them in the ‘Faux Economics’ page (on the right). You’ll definitely hear many new points. Should you have anything to add, feel free!

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